John Lambies Doos Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Probably a rare moment where I am on Corbyn's side on an internal battle. Telegraph reporting that Corbyn is causing anger amongst some back-bench MPs due to his intended statement in his speech that he is 'relaxed' about immigration.Apparently this is 'toxic'. Whilst I obviously believe that Labour should moderate its language and appeal to the centre ground I think there are some things that Labour need to do and say to signal where we stand. Aiming for the centre is good, but it should be the centre left we look toward and being a pro-immigration party isn't something that should change. If I were an advisor I would tell the Labour leadership to ignore the issue of immigration as much as possible (whilst quietly being a pro-immigration party). However if we are mentioning it I would much rather see the party talk about being relaxed about immigration than coming out with crap like this: ^ voted with Boris Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 4 hours ago, jmothecat said: Probably a rare moment where I am on Corbyn's side on an internal battle. Telegraph reporting that Corbyn is causing anger amongst some back-bench MPs due to his intended statement in his speech that he is 'relaxed' about immigration. Apparently this is 'toxic'. Whilst I obviously believe that Labour should moderate its language and appeal to the centre ground I think there are some things that Labour need to do and say to signal where we stand. Aiming for the centre is good, but it should be the centre left we look toward and being a pro-immigration party isn't something that should change. If I were an advisor I would tell the Labour leadership to ignore the issue of immigration as much as possible (whilst quietly being a pro-immigration party). However if we are mentioning it I would much rather see the party talk about being relaxed about immigration than coming out with crap like this: Whoever runs Labour faces a challenge holding on to it's poor, white, small town, working class, racist heartlands in England & Wales while not alienating the cosmopolitan, multicultural inner cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 You could be almost 40 and only have seen two changes of government in your lifetime (not counting the distinction between Tory led coalition and Tory majority). Essentially, in general elections, governments change when they've been in so long that the population get thoroughly sick of them. 10+ year governments are not some sparkling achievement, they're the norm. Labour's angry soul-searching about being left, centre-left, centrist, moderate, radical, etc is kind of pointless in a sense. Just wait until the Tories have pissed off enough voters and they'll be back in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Rachel Reeves channelling her inner Enoch Powell in the same day(?) she leads tributes to Jo Cox lol. What an awful, awful person Reeves is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 You could be almost 40 and only have seen two changes of government in your lifetime (not counting the distinction between Tory led coalition and Tory majority). Essentially, in general elections, governments change when they've been in so long that the population get thoroughly sick of them. 10+ year governments are not some sparkling achievement, they're the norm. Labour's angry soul-searching about being left, centre-left, centrist, moderate, radical, etc is kind of pointless in a sense. Just wait until the Tories have pissed off enough voters and they'll be back in. There is a lot of truth in this I've seen it in my own lifetime.Ive heard stuff about the Tories being finished and the Lib Dems becoming the natural opposition to Labour Govts...see how that worked out.I liked most of what Corbyn said today and maybe he is just ahead of the curve at the moment.Im in total agreement that the Labour party became shambolic in Scotland and deserved what has happened but i would have thought little of what Corbyn said today was out of step with the majority of SNP voters.Logically you either have a 1000 year Reich of Conservatism or something arises to end it much as Blairism did, inevitability followed by its own demise also.I do wind up people on this board but genuinely believe the SNP are no exception to this maybe not to the extent of retreating back to where it started but no more exempt from complacency and drift.Fascinating times really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, Loondave1 said: There is a lot of truth in this I've seen it in my own lifetime.Ive heard stuff about the Tories being finished and the Lib Dems becoming the natural opposition to Labour Govts...see how that worked out.I liked most of what Corbyn said today and maybe he is just ahead of the curve at the moment.Im in total agreement that the Labour party became shambolic in Scotland and deserved what has happened but i would have thought little of what Corbyn said today was out of step with the majority of SNP voters.Logically you either have a 1000 year Reich of Conservatism or something arises to end it much as Blairism did, inevitability followed by its own demise also.I do wind up people on this board but genuinely believe the SNP are no exception to this maybe not to the extent of retreating back to where it started but no more exempt from complacency and drift.Fascinating times really. It doesn't really matter what Corbyn says, he'll never get to enact anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 48 minutes ago, Loondave1 said: There is a lot of truth in this I've seen it in my own lifetime.Ive heard stuff about the Tories being finished and the Lib Dems becoming the natural opposition to Labour Govts...see how that worked out.I liked most of what Corbyn said today and maybe he is just ahead of the curve at the moment.Im in total agreement that the Labour party became shambolic in Scotland and deserved what has happened but i would have thought little of what Corbyn said today was out of step with the majority of SNP voters.Logically you either have a 1000 year Reich of Conservatism or something arises to end it much as Blairism did, inevitability followed by its own demise also.I do wind up people on this board but genuinely believe the SNP are no exception to this maybe not to the extent of retreating back to where it started but no more exempt from complacency and drift.Fascinating times really. Yeah, I doubt most ordinary SNP and Labour voters in Scotland would disagree with each other on a range of economic or social policies if they didn't know where they came from. I always thought Blair and Blairism is/was given too much credit for 1997. They were facing the decayed corpse of a Tory government that was in for way too long. Any Labour party that was 'fresh' and somewhat competent should have romped that one. It will be interesting to see what happens with the SNP, as a party. They're already bucking the trend a little by continually growing electorally stronger in government. The situation of being able to be a government and an opposition as well as the dividing lines on independence might make the rules a bit different. Time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Yeah, I doubt most ordinary SNP and Labour voters in Scotland would disagree with each other on a range of economic or social policies if they didn't know where they came from. I always thought Blair and Blairism is/was given too much credit for 1997. They were facing the decayed corpse of a Tory government that was in for way too long. Any Labour party that was 'fresh' and somewhat competent should have romped that one. It will be interesting to see what happens with the SNP, as a party. They're already bucking the trend a little by continually growing electorally stronger in government. The situation of being able to be a government and an opposition as well as the dividing lines on independence might make the rules a bit different. Time will tell. Sense breaks out Gordon . We'll be having walks together in the Autumn sunshine soon...[emoji6][emoji6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Rumours on twitter that some close to Corbyn are begging him to sack McDonnell to help party unity. It would be a great move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Rumours on twitter that some close to Corbyn are begging him to sack McDonnell to help party unity. It would be a great move. McDonnell is staggeringly honest and loyal but does tend to take the bait like the "lynch McVey" stuff.Needs more schmoozing skills and less division but doubt he can do that.Good guy to have at your back loyalty wise but for the electorate ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerwickMad Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 McDonnell is staggeringly honest and loyal but does tend to take the bait like the "lynch McVey" stuff.Needs more schmoozing skills and less division but doubt he can do that.Good guy to have at your back loyalty wise but for the electorate ?? His defence on Peston was that he said it because he was passionate about the issue he was talking about at the time. Any idiot could use that excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bully Wee Villa Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Sounds like Corbyn's speech was quite well received, with most of the media saying he seemed more assured and conciliatory than before. I'll watch it when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Sounds like Corbyn's speech was quite well received, with most of the media saying he seemed more assured and conciliatory than before. I'll watch it when I get home. I saw a fair bit of it and it was measured and full of ambitions that any sane person would find reasonable.He will of course be reported as a mental case by the media as is the norm.I seriously doubt any SNP or Labour voter would disagree with much of it and even if it turns out the electorate don't buy into it i think it had to be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 There wasn't enough immigrant bashing for some of the 'moderates' it would seem.Listening to some labour MPs on 5live and on Daily Politics this morning it was easy to confuse them with UKIP types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 It was a good, reasonable speech. One thing I didn't see any of political pundits pick up on (because the media favours drooling fucksticks like Tom "I have no official role in anything but I'm omnipresent" Harris) is that Corbyn praised the people who had taken the slew of vacated shadow cabinet jobs and stated "these people are our future". Not encouraging for the right wingers/Diet Tories or whatever they're calling themselves now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenal till I die Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 So far I've been more impressed with McDonnell. He seems more on the ball and vocal about the purges etc, but having said that I was well impressed with Corbyn's victory speech. Was it perfect? Far from it. But think about the speech last year (when I was more impressed with Watson's - how times change). I think Corbyn has finally woken up to the fact that the purge hasn't gone away with the change of leader. On a sort of semi related point about things possibly changing, I was expelled as an affiliated supporter last year then given a vote on one this year. The weird thing is I was never told I'd been reinstated and I thought only members got reinstated anyway. Weird stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Compare Corbyn's speech with that absolute rocket Miliband's when he became leader. "Fwiends, ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 10 hours ago, jmothecat said: If I were an advisor I would tell the Labour leadership to ignore the issue of immigration as much as possible (whilst quietly being a pro-immigration party). Yes, because that worked really well in stopping the NF in the 70s, the BNP at the turn of the century & UKIP today, didn't it? In any case, we've just found ourselves Brexitted because the elite refused to take seriously how pissed off the lower orders were about immigration. If the Labour part of our ruling masters want those beastly proles to support their "betters" ever again, they'd better start listening to what they want, not what Jeremy Corbyn & his Guardian reading cappuchino sipping smug hipsters think is "good for them", the same hubris that finished them (albeit long overdue) in Scotland. They've pissed off the white, black & brown working class in this country to the extent they effectively loaned their vote to the Farageists for a referendum many felt mattered not a flying f**k to their lives whatever the result was - they were screwed before it & would be screwed again after it. If they don't heed the warning, Labour could find themselves losing loads of seats in their Northern English & Welsh heartlands directly to UKIP or to the Tories or Lib Dems on a split vote the same way they were so spectacularly exterminated in Scotland in an event they were arrogantly confident would never, ever happen because apart from the occasional by-election hiccup certain areas would "always vote Labour". People in England (& to an extent Wales) have now seen things don't always have to be "that's just the way it is"... they've enjoyed giving the nation's political class their first bloody nose in decades & realised why the Scots & Northern Irish found it so satisfying come the next major elections they'll want more. Labour had better get that into their thick heads if they ever want to take office ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Peoples discomfort at immigration stems from lack of wage growth and decline in real incomes. You need to change how the economy works so wealth is more evenly distributed and the cost of living is manageable. But to do that you have to be in power. To be in power you need to win voters back in marginal constituencies, the shin bone is connected to the knee bone .... etc etc. I dont want Labour to be in power for the sake of being in power, I want them in power because I think they are better for the majority of people than the Tories. I think that Browns handling of the economic crisis was night and day compared to the Osborne and Cameron. There is a very long list of things the last Labour government did wrong, but obsessing about those so that the Tories can rule for decades is savagely damaging to working people. Corbyn can promise to spend £500 billion but if the swing voters take fright at those numbers then he can promise the Moon on a stick. No power no means of delivering. You vote for the government that can deliver the best outcomes for the people of this (or these) country. You campaign to change peoples minds so that they are willing to vote for more left or progressive policies. You can do both at the same time. Its not hard and the people of this country benefit from both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 Still good to see the quiet man turning up the volume today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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