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Next UK Labour Leader - post Brexit


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Next UK Labour Leader - post Brexit  

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The question really isn't so much the case of whether there was seating or not - it's more than that. Which is why this incident in the long term is so damaging to Corbyn.

Anyone that's a train user knows exactly where Corbyn is coming from where provision of space on trains at peak hours is a disgrace as companies seek to maximise profits by packing commuters in, ostensibly to offset those loss making services they have to run to fulfil their contract obligations to get the franchise, but in reality because they're greedy b*****ds who care little that every peak time sardine train on badly maintained lines increases the chance of a disaster well beyond Ladbroke Grove or Clapham Junction occuring.

The real damage in all this is it displays both Corbyn - and his cohorts - severe lack of judgement and amateur hour politics. Any politician above the level of the late Screaming Lord Sutch would have known - or had people to tell him if the blindingly obvious was required - that when you do a publicity stunt, you follow it through on the premise you are proffering the public until you have left the scene far behind.

Complaining about packed trains? Showing you have to sit in the gangways like an aspiring Man Of The People should? Yes, yes, good stuff. But if it's all too much, once filming stops, you get off at the next station, get some party minion to pick you in their car down a side street & take you to another station to continue. Or take the bus. Whatever.

What you don't do after making a film complaining about the lack of seats on trains, surrounded by the public hearing every last word, is go plank yourself on a seat when it comes up - thereby contradicting the very point you're trying to get across.

Really, Corbyn and his minders can consider themselves lucky in the smartphone age that their antics weren't posted up several times on YouTube before their agit-prop piece saw the light of day. Furthermore, how dumb are they to forget that all train journeys are digitally filmed, so anything they did which could be shown to suggest he was lying was going to be seized upon by Virginrail?

Whatever else, it's the sort of rookie error which will make plenty think that - at the very least - the Corbynistas haven't a clue about the very public transport they purport to care so much about. At worst, it will show them to be clueless bunglers untrustworthy with the power of high office when they can't even do a routine PR stunt without it all backfiring on them big time. If a single Virgin train's staff can hand Corbyn's arse back to him on a plate, how's he going to cope dealing with Clinton or Putin, let along a now potentially hostile (by 2020) EU?

The Corbynistas have not merely missed an open goal, they've hit the bar and saw it rebound all the way back into their net. Those are the sort of errors that start sowing doubts in even the most zealous supporters that the unlikely chance of him winning the next general election isn't going to conclude in another Leicester City fairytale ending: let alone that electorate they need to convince faster than they currently are.

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There seem to be a lot of people talking about how the seats were reserved. I get trains fairly often, and am I alone in sitting in reserved seats after a train has started moving if they are unoccupied? Obviously if someone then comes along with a ticket, I will move, but trains almost always have seats which are reserved but empty, as the person who booked the seat has obviously sat elsewhere.

I'm wondering if it was an honest mistake by Jeremy, unused to train travel, who assumed that because a seat was reserved that he could therefore not actually sit there. In which case I think he has been slightly unfairly criticised over this for merely being unused to train travel.

Embarrassing climb down by the Thatchblairites. From "there were loads of unreserved seats" to "yeah, okay the seats were reserved but he should've sat in them anyway" in the space of an evening.

Going to bed now. Fully expect "well, he should've just cycled" by the time I wake up.

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The question really isn't so much the case of whether there was seating or not - it's more than that. Which is why this incident in the long term is so damaging to Corbyn.

Anyone that's a train user knows exactly where Corbyn is coming from where provision of space on trains at peak hours is a disgrace as companies seek to maximise profits by packing commuters in, ostensibly to offset those loss making services they have to run to fulfil their contract obligations to get the franchise, but in reality because they're greedy b*****ds who care little that every peak time sardine train on badly maintained lines increases the chance of a disaster well beyond Ladbroke Grove or Clapham Junction occuring.

The real damage in all this is it displays both Corbyn - and his cohorts - severe lack of judgement and amateur hour politics. Any politician above the level of the late Screaming Lord Sutch would have known - or had people to tell him if the blindingly obvious was required - that when you do a publicity stunt, you follow it through on the premise you are proffering the public until you have left the scene far behind.

Complaining about packed trains? Showing you have to sit in the gangways like an aspiring Man Of The People should? Yes, yes, good stuff. But if it's all too much, once filming stops, you get off at the next station, get some party minion to pick you in their car down a side street & take you to another station to continue. Or take the bus. Whatever.

What you don't do after making a film complaining about the lack of seats on trains, surrounded by the public hearing every last word, is go plank yourself on a seat when it comes up - thereby contradicting the very point you're trying to get across.

Really, Corbyn and his minders can consider themselves lucky in the smartphone age that their antics weren't posted up several times on YouTube before their agit-prop piece saw the light of day. Furthermore, how dumb are they to forget that all train journeys are digitally filmed, so anything they did which could be shown to suggest he was lying was going to be seized upon by Virginrail?

Whatever else, it's the sort of rookie error which will make plenty think that - at the very least - the Corbynistas haven't a clue about the very public transport they purport to care so much about. At worst, it will show them to be clueless bunglers untrustworthy with the power of high office when they can't even do a routine PR stunt without it all backfiring on them big time. If a single Virgin train's staff can hand Corbyn's arse back to him on a plate, how's he going to cope dealing with Clinton or Putin, let along a now potentially hostile (by 2020) EU?

The Corbynistas have not merely missed an open goal, they've hit the bar and saw it rebound all the way back into their net. Those are the sort of errors that start sowing doubts in even the most zealous supporters that the unlikely chance of him winning the next general election isn't going to conclude in another Leicester City fairytale ending: let alone that electorate they need to convince faster than they currently are.



The thing is, as PR stunts go, it's a fantastic idea. Shows Corbyn not only as a man of the people, a man of integrity, but it highlights a real issue people face every working day. Not only that but it's a broad issue that impacts not only Labour's bread and butter, but the middle classes who might usually vote Tory. But like you say, the incompetence with which it Was executed has hoist him by his own bodkin.
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Embarrassing climb down by the Thatchblairites. From "there were loads of unreserved seats" to "yeah, okay the seats were reserved but he should've sat in them anyway" in the space of an evening.

Going to bed now. Fully expect "well, he should've just cycled" by the time I wake up.



It's not a climb down at all. I haven't changed my stance on this since the beginning. I'm trying to be fair to him because I'm a big fan of spin and it actually gives me hope that he's trying. I just wish he was a bit less shit at it.
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37 minutes ago, Highlandmagyar said:


Your reality is out of the window when you think Labour will win under Corbyn or the old style socialism.

I don't think I've ever claimed Corbyn will ever become PM - I assume that's what you mean here, as he's looking set fair to retain the leadership. What is undeniable, though, is that he has tapped into a new appetite for, and interest in, politics among the nation's younger voters  - specifically regarding the behaviour of elected representatives once they believe they know better than their constituents. A refreshing trend which was prevalent during the Independence referendum, and is now becoming more noticeable down here as well. A big enough groundswell, and someone, either at the next GE or the one after, will emerge as a credible (to the MSM, etc. - I have more interest in policy than personality, tbh.) Socialist Leader. That old "Third Way" schtick is going to be left in History's footnotes along with the already discredited and rapidly failing Tory project.

As fo Socialism, why "old-style"? Is there anything modern and radical about keeping the population in insecurity and fear, well away from the levers of power? Governments and religions have been using this model for millenia. As evolved beings living in a world where there is no need for the inequality, suffering and death we see across the globe, what is wrong - or, ideed, "old-fashioned" - with wanting a decent life for all?

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5 hours ago, jmothecat said:

 


It's not a climb down at all. I haven't changed my stance on this since the beginning. I'm trying to be fair to him because I'm a big fan of spin and it actually gives me hope that he's trying. I just wish he was a bit less shit at it.

Wait - hold the front page!

*Post may contain sarcasm.

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For what it's worth I agree that Corbyn is absolutely shit at this and this kind of stupidity with the stunt backfiring only heightens the perception of him as a bungling incompetent.  To address Banana's post though he's a million miles away from Trotskyism. I wouldn't even call him a socialist - he's about as left-wing as social democrats get, but he is a social democrat. He doesn't believe in total state command of the economy, he believes in state involvement in public services and that's a reasonable position that's perfectly compatible with being on the centre-left rather than the far left. The irony being that because Corbyn's shit at this, his train stunt has actually made it harder to get focus on his eminently sensible policies on state operated trains and bus regulation, as now every time he mentions a train people will be talking about him and his incompetence rather than the policy.

All that said, to address the Labour supporters here, do you really believe Owen Smith is actually going to be any less shit at this? He's just an even less relatable Ed Miliband, a vacuous void of nothingness whose entire electoral strategy will be gimmicky Ed-Stone style nonsense and flip flopping on policy, making it up as he goes along based on what focus groups are saying that week. Barring an economic or national security calamity that destroys confidence in May out of nowhere, your choices are between losing in 2020 with Corbyn and losing in 2020 with Smith. You can accept that reality and build for a post-Corbyn consensus that allows for a quick recovery from that inevitable defeat, or you can tear your party apart trying to depose him when there clearly isn't a credible candidate to replace him anyway.

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7 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

The question really isn't so much the case of whether there was seating or not - it's more than that. Which is why this incident in the long term is so damaging to Corbyn.

Anyone that's a train user knows exactly where Corbyn is coming from where provision of space on trains at peak hours is a disgrace as companies seek to maximise profits by packing commuters in, ostensibly to offset those loss making services they have to run to fulfil their contract obligations to get the franchise, but in reality because they're greedy b*****ds who care little that every peak time sardine train on badly maintained lines increases the chance of a disaster well beyond Ladbroke Grove or Clapham Junction occuring.

The real damage in all this is it displays both Corbyn - and his cohorts - severe lack of judgement and amateur hour politics. Any politician above the level of the late Screaming Lord Sutch would have known - or had people to tell him if the blindingly obvious was required - that when you do a publicity stunt, you follow it through on the premise you are proffering the public until you have left the scene far behind.

Complaining about packed trains? Showing you have to sit in the gangways like an aspiring Man Of The People should? Yes, yes, good stuff. But if it's all too much, once filming stops, you get off at the next station, get some party minion to pick you in their car down a side street & take you to another station to continue. Or take the bus. Whatever.

What you don't do after making a film complaining about the lack of seats on trains, surrounded by the public hearing every last word, is go plank yourself on a seat when it comes up - thereby contradicting the very point you're trying to get across.

Really, Corbyn and his minders can consider themselves lucky in the smartphone age that their antics weren't posted up several times on YouTube before their agit-prop piece saw the light of day. Furthermore, how dumb are they to forget that all train journeys are digitally filmed, so anything they did which could be shown to suggest he was lying was going to be seized upon by Virginrail?

Whatever else, it's the sort of rookie error which will make plenty think that - at the very least - the Corbynistas haven't a clue about the very public transport they purport to care so much about. At worst, it will show them to be clueless bunglers untrustworthy with the power of high office when they can't even do a routine PR stunt without it all backfiring on them big time. If a single Virgin train's staff can hand Corbyn's arse back to him on a plate, how's he going to cope dealing with Clinton or Putin, let along a now potentially hostile (by 2020) EU?

The Corbynistas have not merely missed an open goal, they've hit the bar and saw it rebound all the way back into their net. Those are the sort of errors that start sowing doubts in even the most zealous supporters that the unlikely chance of him winning the next general election isn't going to conclude in another Leicester City fairytale ending: let alone that electorate they need to convince faster than they currently are.

 

Good post. A minor quibble though - the lines themselves are run by Network Rail which is state-owned. It's Network Rail that have failed to build enough bigger tunnels/bridges/platforms to accommodate more and bigger trains. The operators can only cram as many trains as they can onto a network that just can't take it.

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5 hours ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

I don't think I've ever claimed Corbyn will ever become PM - I assume that's what you mean here, as he's looking set fair to retain the leadership. What is undeniable, though, is that he has tapped into a new appetite for, and interest in, politics among the nation's younger voters  - specifically regarding the behaviour of elected representatives once they believe they know better than their constituents. A refreshing trend which was prevalent during the Independence referendum, and is now becoming more noticeable down here as well. A big enough groundswell, and someone, either at the next GE or the one after, will emerge as a credible (to the MSM, etc. - I have more interest in policy than personality, tbh.) Socialist Leader. That old "Third Way" schtick is going to be left in History's footnotes along with the already discredited and rapidly failing Tory project.

As fo Socialism, why "old-style"? Is there anything modern and radical about keeping the population in insecurity and fear, well away from the levers of power? Governments and religions have been using this model for millenia. As evolved beings living in a world where there is no need for the inequality, suffering and death we see across the globe, what is wrong - or, ideed, "old-fashioned" - with wanting a decent life for all?

It's not new politics though - most of the new members are either in university towns/cities or London.

Give them a few years after they graduate and they'll have fucked off to the Tories.  This isn't some upsurge of the working classes but the usual middle-class classes playing lip service to socialist policies.

In many ways they are no different from many of the wankers who supported Blair.

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52 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

For what it's worth I agree that Corbyn is absolutely shit at this and this kind of stupidity with the stunt backfiring only heightens the perception of him as a bungling incompetent.  To address Banana's post though he's a million miles away from Trotskyism. I wouldn't even call him a socialist - he's about as left-wing as social democrats get, but he is a social democrat. He doesn't believe in total state command of the economy, he believes in state involvement in public services and that's a reasonable position that's perfectly compatible with being on the centre-left rather than the far left. The irony being that because Corbyn's shit at this, his train stunt has actually made it harder to get focus on his eminently sensible policies on state operated trains and bus regulation, as now every time he mentions a train people will be talking about him and his incompetence rather than the policy.

All that said, to address the Labour supporters here, do you really believe Owen Smith is actually going to be any less shit at this? He's just an even less relatable Ed Miliband, a vacuous void of nothingness whose entire electoral strategy will be gimmicky Ed-Stone style nonsense and flip flopping on policy, making it up as he goes along based on what focus groups are saying that week. Barring an economic or national security calamity that destroys confidence in May out of nowhere, your choices are between losing in 2020 with Corbyn and losing in 2020 with Smith. You can accept that reality and build for a post-Corbyn consensus that allows for a quick recovery from that inevitable defeat, or you can tear your party apart trying to depose him when there clearly isn't a credible candidate to replace him anyway.

As someone who is an ex-Labour Party member (24 years now) I would have to agree that the choice between Corbyn and Smith is not very appetising.

As with the last Labour leadership election the paucity of candidates on show makes you realise how far Labour have fallen.  For someone as piss-poor as Angela Eagle to even be considered as a candidate tells you how little talent they have.

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8 hours ago, jmothecat said:

There seem to be a lot of people talking about how the seats were reserved. I get trains fairly often, and am I alone in sitting in reserved seats after a train has started moving if they are unoccupied? 

I was actually travelling on the East Coast Mainline travelling in the opposite direction from the Corbyn train around the time he was on the way to Newcastle so may have passed his train.

I got on at Edinburgh Waverley and there was someone sitting in my reserved seat, after some bluster about the seat being 'double booked' the person moved.  Most folk travelling on the Virgin East Coast trains, without booking ahead, will know there's an un-reserved coach and the rest are all potentially reserved seats.  Some of the 'reserved' seats are only reserved for part of the way so you could sit there for the parts nobody's sitting there or obviously for no shows.

On the way back, after getting off the Virgin East Coast train at Waverley, there was quite a few folk standing on the Abellio Scotrail train from Edinburgh to Glasgow, myself included.

 

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2 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

To address Banana's post though he's a million miles away from Trotskyism. I wouldn't even call him a socialist - he's about as left-wing as social democrats get, but he is a social democrat.

TBF I said leader, not that he himself is. I'm regurgitating headlines about hardline left-wingers trying to gain a foothold in the Labour movement.

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30 minutes ago, Fide said:

Tom PeckVerified account @tompeck 12h

Owen Smith tells audience: "with me, you won't have some lunatic in charge of the Labour Party."

 

Wow.

New Labour are destroying themselves more and more with every day that passes.

What are they going to do if Corbyn retains the leadership? 

Can only imagine all this ammo will be deployed against them come the next GE, UK wide obliteration awaits surely..

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The best part is attacking Corbyn at being bad with the press. Owen Smith speaks like he's either from the 16th century or from the 1980s. The moderate wing don't actually believe in anything do they? They lambasted Corbyn for being a straight, white male while Eagle was challenging then immediately and noticeably dropped that whole angle once she proved to be hopeless. Then it was lambasting Corbyn for scrapping the post of minister for mental health before ignoring Smith jabbering on about not having a lunatic lead the party. If competency and progressive values alongside electability are going to be your basis for a leadership challenge then make sure your candidate even faintly hints at either you complete morons.

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