Jason King Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, craigkillie said: He didn't "have to cap" any of those mediocre players. He could have done what most normal managers would have done and stuck with the core of the existing team whilst gradually introducing others. The idea that Vogts was forced to play a game of international cap tombola is nonsense. It has become a bit of a myth that Craig Brown had somehow left behind a decrepit squad of 35 year olds. His last game was a 2-1 win over Latvia in 2001, and there were only 5 players aged 30 or over. The line-up was Neil Sullivan (31), David Weir (31), Callum Davidson (24), Christian Dailly (27), Matt Elliott (32), Colin Cameron (27), Barry Nicholson (23), Craig Burley (30), Dougie Freedman (27), Don Hutchison (30), Neil McCann (26). The subs used were Scott Booth (29), Gavin Rae (23) and Scott Severin (22), and the unused subs were Rab Douglas (29), Gary Naysmith (22), Gary Holt (28) and Stevie Crawford (27). The likes of Barry Ferguson, Jackie McNamara, Dominic Matteo and Kenny Miller amongst others had already been capped and were still well under 30 at the time too, and he still had 31 year old Paul Lambert who was one of Celtic's best players at the time. With the exception of Elliott, all of those could reasonably be expected to still be around for the following campaign, but by the next competitive match 10 months later Vogts made 9 changes to that starting line-up, and we drew in the Faroe Islands. Dearie dearie me, do you seriously expect the likes of Nicholson, Freedman, Elliot and Holt to be involved - they were poor players and Brown capped garbage in his final game. Again I fail to see why you are so insistent in trying to do down Berti. It's clear you have an agenda against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 People only go on about Vogts when others indulge in revisionism and say he did a good job as Scotland manager, when that is blatantly a nonsensical position to hold. When people start acknowledging that finishing second in 2004 qualifying wasn't a difficult or impressive achievement at all, people will stop feeling the need to point out that all he did was finish above Lithuania, Iceland and the Faroe Islands, something every Scotland manager since has also managed. Your suggestion that people criticising Vogts have an agenda falls down immediately when you see those same people are also calling for a foreign manager to be appointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMessiah Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 If you defend Strachan you're definitely a no voter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 History can easily look back on the Strachan debacle and question why he picked the likes of Mulgrew with a broken leg, Maloney who was playing in the retirement homes league and of course Martin and Anya who hadn't seen a first team game for their lower league clubs ? Surely that's worse than any of the caps Berti handed out ?? At the same time he totally ignored the likes of Charlie Adam who was at the time playing first team with Stoke and very often running the midfield, he totally ignored the likes of Ryan Jack & Graeme Shinnie at Aberdeen but sticks in McGinn & Barry Mcaky who're both playing at Hibs & Rangers in the lower league ??? There's many many more I could mention but ultimately Strachan picked his mates and ignored players who COULD have done a job for us and for that I say good riddance pal........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Craig Brown only started picking some of those players once the team was out of contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niketon Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 History can easily look back on the Strachan debacle and question why he picked the likes of Mulgrew with a broken leg, Maloney who was playing in the retirement homes league and of course Martin and Anya who hadn't seen a first team game for their lower league clubs ? Surely that's worse than any of the caps Berti handed out ?? At the same time he totally ignored the likes of Charlie Adam who was at the time playing first team with Stoke and very often running the midfield, he totally ignored the likes of Ryan Jack & Graeme Shinnie at Aberdeen but sticks in McGinn & Barry Mcaky who're both playing at Hibs & Rangers in the lower league ??? There's many many more I could mention but ultimately Strachan picked his mates and ignored players who COULD have done a job for us and for that I say good riddance pal........... I stopped reading at Ryan Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Just now, niketon said: I stopped reading at Ryan Jack You kept reading at Charlie Fucking Adam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Brown blooded 'youngsters' very late. We'd already been eliminated in that Latvia game. It was Severin, Rae, Nicholson and Freedman's only appearances of the campaign. In previous match he fielded Sullivan (31), Dailly (28), Elliott (33), Weir (31), Boyd (36), Burley (30), Lambert (32), Matteo (27), Naysmith (23), Hutchison (30), Dodds (32). Subs were Booth (30), Cameron (29), McNamara (28). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pittsburgh phil Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Big Sam preparing his cash demands as we speak Preferably in a brown paper bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niketon Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 You kept reading at Charlie Fucking Adam? Couldn't see for the tears Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 15 minutes ago, Savage Henry said: Craig Brown only started picking some of those players once the team was out of contention. Of that starting line-up, only Nicholson (1) and Freedman (0) had fewer than 10 caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kebab Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Some people have to mention Robbie Stockdale and then claim that Bertie capped any old tart with a Scottish granny and yet Strachan capped the modern day equivalents with the likes Johnny Russell and Craig Forsyth. Is that Johnny "born in Glasgow" Russell and Craig "Carnoustie" Forsyth you're talking about??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M0rtonfc Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Very much doubt WGS has "Stepped down", more likely he was told to BOLT and offered the choice of mutal consent or sacking to the press, again Gordon Smith chaffed about this on Sportsound when George Burley was given the olde soggy boot up the arse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoonTon Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I don't feel the utter relief I felt when the previous two managers went. I didn't think that Strachan was out of his depth in the way that they were. Ultimately he has paid the price for not handling the necessary transition between teams very well when the players that gave him early success lost form or started to wind down (the likes of Hutton, Martin, Hanley, Maloney, Fletcher, and Naismith). If we had beaten Lithuania and Georgia in those vital games, not a big ask, he'd have been a decent success. But we didn't, and therefore he wasn't - that's the bottom line in reflecting on his tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insaintee Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Dunning1874 said: No, this isn't true at all. Yes, the players who had formed the spine of the team under Brown were mostly gone, which meant he had to bring in new players who had little experience. Having to do that doesn't stop a manager from simply calling up the players he feels are the best available and persisting with them rather than throwing call ups around like confetti and capping more than 60 players, including players who'd played less than 10 first team games at the time they were winning caps. It simply doesn't follow any kind of logic to say that 'experienced players retired and we needed to blood youngsters, so calling up Warren Cummings and Kevin Kyle when there were clearly better players available was the right thing to do'. It'd be like calling up Jordan McGhee and Jack Baird and giving them both a few games if Berra, Mulgrew and Martin all retired now, rather than going straight to the obviously superior options of Liam Lindsay and Liam Cooper. I love big Jack, but the only thing about him that suggests he's international class is the fact that Gordon Greer, Christoph Berra, Kirk Broadfoot and Hanlon get/got call ups to the Scotland squad, he's better than that. (ok being a bit harsh) But he's never had a Scotland Cap at any level, the same goes for Grant at Falkirk. One of the problems we have is that even at youth level we pick players from the bigot brothers ahead of better players playing for other teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staggie_93 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 1 hour ago, WATTOO said: History can easily look back on the Strachan debacle and question why he picked the likes of Mulgrew with a broken leg, Maloney who was playing in the retirement homes league and of course Martin and Anya who hadn't seen a first team game for their lower league clubs ? Surely that's worse than any of the caps Berti handed out ?? At the same time he totally ignored the likes of Charlie Adam who was at the time playing first team with Stoke and very often running the midfield, he totally ignored the likes of Ryan Jack & Graeme Shinnie at Aberdeen but sticks in McGinn & Barry Mcaky who're both playing at Hibs & Rangers in the lower league ??? There's many many more I could mention but ultimately Strachan picked his mates and ignored players who COULD have done a job for us and for that I say good riddance pal........... I could be wrong, but did he not also call up Ian fucking Black whilst he was playing for Rangers in the 3rd division? Christ almighty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highlandmagyar 2nd String Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I could be wrong, but did he not also call up Ian fucking Black whilst he was playing for Rangers in the 3rd division? Christ almighty [emoji38] That was Levein. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Briggs Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 15 minutes ago, M0rtonfc said: Very much doubt WGS has "Stepped down", more likely he was told to BOLT and offered the choice of mutal consent or sacking to the press, again Gordon Smith chaffed about this on Sportsound when George Burley was given the olde soggy boot up the arse Strachan was contracted until November and will be paid in full. The SFA has decided that it will not renew his contract so he has gone a few weeks early. The official statement allows Strachan and McGhee to depart with dignity - http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_fa_news.cfm?page=2986&newsID=17304&newsCategoryID=1. There is plenty of time to identify and recruit a new manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 The point i was trying to make is that he has 20 caps for the u21's, you don't get them in one season so he clearly played for the u21's when he was maybe 18 If he isnt good enough to even try giving a cap to, then why play him so much for the u21's potentially in place of someone else who might very well be good enough for future international games I thought I was backing your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Anyway, Strachan is bagged. Next!He is a grouchy wee fucker. Levein was similar in that he behaved like a complete dick and seemed to treat the fans and media as an annoying sideshow. Hopefully this next guy is a bit more upbeat and better at getting the media and fans up for games.Mainly though, hopefully the next guy is a winner and can get us to qualify for a tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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