The Official Dundee United 2016-17 Thread

[Aladdin]

27 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

If someone is looking for security then the money coming in is not an "investment" it is some form of loan that will eventually have to be repaid and may have to be serviced.

That is not to say I don't welcome an injection of cash but it's important to be clear about the nature of such funds.  What would be nice would be a share issue of some sort however I have no idea who would be interested in subscribing and there could be issues surrounding valuation and whether ST would be willing to see a dilution of his shareholding.

 

This.  The US money will be a loan.  I would of thought a share issue would have been a good idea - raise some capital as presumably a few ordinary fans would put their hands in their pockets, the hairless serpent retains a controlling stake if thats what he wants and he could call the bluff of groups like fans United and the new foundation,  

[stumigoo]

The interview with Thompson airs in full in half an hour but much of it has been quoted in the media today. The main points seem to be that nobody has approached Thompson with anything that resembles a firm offer for the club and he is still looking for investments/loans in the meantime to cover costs and keep the club operating at a reasonable level of finance. That is where things get difficult IMO.

If Thompson is accused of not spending money on the club then that is false. He has. Unfortunately the money we are still spending on the team and the infrastructure is Premiership level spending and means we are running at a loss. One option is that we get some 'soft loans' and bank on promotion either this season or next. This seems to be the short term plan. The other is Thompson cuts costs dramatically to the point of us "living within our means" which would result in us losing St.Andrews and a big slice of our playing squad plus slashing our wage budget (which means less of a chance of promotion).

I'm still not overly critical of Thompson when it comes to the purely financial side of things, I think he has, on the whole, managed the club very well over the last few years. I feel like I constantly go over old ground with this but his big mistakes have been in recruitment and the timing of some of our player sales. His footballing decisions have been pretty poor since we lost Levein. Financially though he has done what I would assume most fans would want. Cut the debt, attempted to stabilise the club and give us a long term future as a business. 

What we have now is a fan base that is clerkly unhappy and a team on the park that falls way below what most of us think is acceptable. That, coupled with our relegation, means that Thompson is in the firing line (and many would so rightly so). Unfortunately social media gives rise to a huge number of shouty, very judgemental and ill-informed comments. The best of those right now is definitely "Aye bet he just wants our season ticket money to help the club, well thats just typical" (so clubs can carry on as normal without that money? Of course he wants your season tickets, we need them like every single other club)

[The DA]

Good balanced summary, stumigoo.

[Granny Danger]

Excellent interview by Stephen Thompson.  We will see if his critics take the challenge.

Not surprised the West Coast mafia are giving him a hard time.

 

[stumigoo]

Excellent interview by Stephen Thompson.  We will see if his critics take the challenge.
Not surprised the West Coast mafia are giving him a hard time.
 

Twitter is already awash with "lying b*****d", "he needs to get to f**k".

People have a narrative and won't change their mind regardless of what kind of interview Thompson gave.

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, stumigoo said:

 

Twitter is already awash with "lying b*****d", "he needs to get to f**k".

People have a narrative and won't change their mind regardless of what kind of interview Thompson gave.

 

The mouthy minority as their pathetic protest showed.

[GraemePaynesSocks]

Twitter is already awash with "lying b*****d", "he needs to get to f**k".

People have a narrative and won't change their mind regardless of what kind of interview Thompson gave.

Unfortunately, Chick and the rest were parading this pish as the majority view.

[Dee Man]

13 hours ago, Aladdin said:

This.  The US money will be a loan.  I would of thought a share issue would have been a good idea - raise some capital as presumably a few ordinary fans would put their hands in their pockets, the hairless serpent retains a controlling stake if thats what he wants and he could call the bluff of groups like fans United and the new foundation,  

Would ye of, aye?

[vikingTON]

If Thompson is accused of not spending money on the club then that is false. He has. Unfortunately the money we are still spending on the team and the infrastructure is Premiership level spending and means we are running at a loss. One option is that we get some 'soft loans' and bank on promotion either this season or next. This seems to be the short term plan. The other is Thompson cuts costs dramatically to the point of us "living within our means" which would result in us losing St.Andrews and a big slice of our playing squad plus slashing our wage budget (which means less of a chance of promotion).

Erm no - there's absolutely no reason why Dundee United couldn't "live within their means" and still have a comfortable budgetary advantage over Falkirk, never mind Morton, Dunfermline, assorted diddies and either of the current bottom two in the Premiership. You had six months' notice that you were going down last season and didn't bother to adjust your setup accordingly.

How you can characterise the above as sound financial stewardship is beyond me. It is maintaining a costly delusion of grandeur that doesn't fit with the reality of your situation. See "Dundee in the First Division, 2005-2014 (1 administration)" to determine how that is likely to work out for you.

[stumigoo]

Erm no - there's absolutely no reason why Dundee United couldn't "live within their means" and still have a comfortable budgetary advantage over Falkirk, never mind Morton, Dunfermline, assorted diddies and either of the current bottom two in the Premiership. You had six months' notice that you were going down last season and didn't bother to adjust your setup accordingly.

How you can characterise the above as sound financial stewardship is beyond me. It is maintaining a costly delusion of grandeur that doesn't fit with the reality of your situation. See "Dundee in the First Division, 2005-2014 (1 administration)" to determine how that is likely to work out for you.

When did I claim it was sound financial stewardship? I didn't. I said it seems to be the plan that the club are going for soft loans to maintain a Premiership size operating budget. I didn't say it made financial sense. What I did say is that on the whole Thompson has managed our debt well since his appointment (but the last year has been much poorer).

Of course we could live within our means but as Thompson pointed out last night if you all of a sudden take a club with he operating costs we have and then slash it to the point of breaking even then by default it makes things difficult (again at no point did I claim otherwise). I'd love for us to simply break even year on year but the plan seems to be that for next year at least we are "having a go" with our spending, hence the soft loans.

[fabcab]

15 hours ago, stumigoo said:

 

When did I claim it was sound financial stewardship? I didn't. I said it seems to be the plan that the club are going for soft loans to maintain a Premiership size operating budget. I didn't say it made financial sense. What I did say is that on the whole Thompson has managed our debt well since his appointment (but the last year has been much poorer).

Of course we could live within our means but as Thompson pointed out last night if you all of a sudden take a club with he operating costs we have and then slash it to the point of breaking even then by default it makes things difficult (again at no point did I claim otherwise). I'd love for us to simply break even year on year but the plan seems to be that for next year at least we are "having a go" with our spending, hence the soft loans.
 

 

Definitely the Dundee FC school of financial planning, fingers crossed it leads you down the same path as us!

[vikingTON]

17 hours ago, stumigoo said:

 

Of course we could live within our means but as Thompson pointed out last night if you all of a sudden take a club with he operating costs we have and then slash it to the point of breaking even then by default it makes things difficult (again at no point did I claim otherwise). 

"Makes things difficult" to achieve what exactly? Are you seriously claiming that Dundee United operating on a break-even basis wouldn't have a far higher transfer and wage budget than eight out of nine teams in this division, or all nine likely opponents next season? Your decision to continue 'having a go' this season made no sense, as Hibs dwarfed your resources anyway; while any competent manager could build a title-winning side on a break-even basis the following season. 

You had six months to prepare for the distinct prospect of relegation to the lower leagues and that is the utterly pathetic excuse that your club has mustered for its failure to adapt to its current situation. 

Quote

the plan seems to be that for next year at least we are "having a go" with our spending, hence the soft loans. 

Ah yes - also known as the "Calum Melville 'plan'" - that worked out so well for your city neighbours in precisely the same position. 

 

 

[stumigoo]

4 hours ago, virginton said:

"Makes things difficult" to achieve what exactly? Are you seriously claiming that Dundee United operating on a break-even basis wouldn't have a far higher transfer and wage budget than eight out of nine teams in this division, or all nine likely opponents next season? Your decision to continue 'having a go' this season made no sense, as Hibs dwarfed your resources anyway; while any competent manager could build a title-winning side on a break-even basis the following season. 

You had six months to prepare for the distinct prospect of relegation to the lower leagues and that is the utterly pathetic excuse that your club has mustered for its failure to adapt to its current situation. 

Ah yes - also known as the "Calum Melville 'plan'" - that worked out so well for your city neighbours in precisely the same position. 

 

 

Again, at what point did I say otherwise? You seem to be intent on creating an argument that I certainly didn't. I want us to survive and live within our means (I've already said this but I will say it again). The reason I said it would make things more difficult is that regardless of the team on the pitch we are operating at the moment with a large number of long standing commitments like our training complex, accommodation facilities for our development squad, hotel contracts for new signings and flats for players who need short term accommodation. We also have a really large commercial department with regards to our hospitality and our youth community programs too. Our costs are largely off-field. Our playing budget is not as big as some think but is still the 2nd biggest in the league.  If United decided over the summer to get rid of all of the infrastructure then it would change the shape of the club completely. Thompson himself said that they made the decision to not do that this year because they would have to completely restructure the business, something they couldn't commit to this summer. The other point is that Thompson is trying to sell an 'attractive' business. Obviously a business with debt isn't attractive but it seems as though the board are saying to any willing owners "look we have this base at St.Andrews, we have a hosing complex for our young players, we have these community programs" all to make the business as attractive as possible ("we train at Caird Park and we get our youth players to couch hop" doesn't sound as glamorous)

You are correct when you say we had some time to prepare for relegation but the board decided (and wrongly) to throw their weight behind sacking an entire management team, hiring a new head coach on a long contract and giving him a huge slice of wage budget to sign incredibly expensive free transfers. All to avoid getting relegated (and we all know the end of that story). 

The board think they can secure enough money and investment (or soft loans) to continue with this operating budget next year. Once again I didn't say this was right or wrong but it is what they are aiming to do. If we didn't win promotion next year then we will see a completely different club the following season.

I've no doubt you will continue to disagree with everything I've said but I won't change your mind on that. You seem more angry about this than many if us, you should join Fans United. 

[stumigoo]

Definitely the Dundee FC school of financial planning, fingers crossed it leads you down the same path as us!

If Murray signs a £6000 a week contract in the summer that will be the real indication of our impending doom.

[Branch Ton]

1 hour ago, stumigoo said:

Again, at what point did I say otherwise? You seem to be intent on creating an argument that I certainly didn't. I want us to survive and live within our means (I've already said this but I will say it again). The reason I said it would make things more difficult is that regardless of the team on the pitch we are operating at the moment with a large number of long standing commitments like our training complex, accommodation facilities for our development squad, hotel contracts for new signings and flats for players who need short term accommodation. We also have a really large commercial department with regards to our hospitality and our youth community programs too. Our costs are largely off-field. Our playing budget is not as big as some think but is still the 2nd biggest in the league.  If United decided over the summer to get rid of all of the infrastructure then it would change the shape of the club completely. Thompson himself said that they made the decision to not do that this year because they would have to completely restructure the business, something they couldn't commit to this summer. The other point is that Thompson is trying to sell an 'attractive' business. Obviously a business with debt isn't attractive but it seems as though the board are saying to any willing owners "look we have this base at St.Andrews, we have a hosing complex for our young players, we have these community programs" all to make the business as attractive as possible ("we train at Caird Park and we get our youth players to couch hop" doesn't sound as glamorous)

You are correct when you say we had some time to prepare for relegation but the board decided (and wrongly) to throw their weight behind sacking an entire management team, hiring a new head coach on a long contract and giving him a huge slice of wage budget to sign incredibly expensive free transfers. All to avoid getting relegated (and we all know the end of that story). 

The board think they can secure enough money and investment (or soft loans) to continue with this operating budget next year. Once again I didn't say this was right or wrong but it is what they are aiming to do. If we didn't win promotion next year then we will see a completely different club the following season.

I've no doubt you will continue to disagree with everything I've said but I won't change your mind on that. You seem more angry about this than many if us, you should join Fans United. 

A hosing complex? Must be a new motivational technique I assume or are most of your players just manky?

[stumigoo]

A hosing complex? Much be a new motivational technique I assume or are most of your players just manky?

It builds mental toughness. Dave Bowman uses a high pressure hose to torture the development players.

[Poet of the Macabre]

Just imagine how much Willo Flood is getting every week.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

23 hours ago, virginton said:

How you can characterise the above as sound financial stewardship is beyond me. It is maintaining a costly delusion of grandeur that doesn't fit with the reality of your situation. See "Dundee in the First Division, 2005-2014 (1 administration)" to determine how that is likely to work out for you.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/morton/1180464.stm

[The Master]

8 minutes ago, Bigmouth Strikes Again said:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/morton/1180464.stm

Interesting link, thanks for sharing. It seems that Morton, too, have had previous delusions of grandeur that they have tried to maintain through overspending.

If I recall correctly, Morton were actually relegated that season. That suggests to me their idea of "grandeur" is merely survival in the second tier of Scottish football. Would you say that's a fair assessment? 

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

1 hour ago, The Master said:

Interesting link, thanks for sharing. It seems that Morton, too, have had previous delusions of grandeur that they have tried to maintain through overspending.

If I recall correctly, Morton were actually relegated that season. That suggests to me their idea of "grandeur" is merely survival in the second tier of Scottish football. Would you say that's a fair assessment? 

Yes I would, also interesting to note that these diddy men haven't played in the top league since 1988. Thank you.