Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[john1962]

So what king of management style can we expect when Tommy arrives at Tannadice?

I think pragmatic would sum it up best.

[steviemay17]

I Think I've made this point before but it will take years before seeing any genuine results from investing in a youth set up , in recent years it will just be the same youth players we already had in the system who will suffer from a lack of coaching while growing up. a completely different level but the point stands, Germany revamped everything after Euro 2000, Spain changed their attitudes to youth coaching in the 90's and it took 10+ years to notice a serious difference but look at them now. Am I not right in thinking that our under 17's squad got a lot of praise and did well last season ? Scraping the system now, when we are close to the timescale we would start to see a major difference would be crazy .

[PauloPerth]

24 minutes ago, 7-2 said:

Shaughnessy was signed from Aberdeen and has sod all to do with our youth system. That has been a waste of money for years and must have cost us millions. You've to go from Callum Davidson to Stevie May between genuine successes and even then both were almost punted before they got their chance.  Proof of how poor it's been is not only the lack of players getting into Saints team but also the lack of 'ones that got away' and made it at a level similar to or above Saints is decidedly short if not completely blank. I'd have happily seen it shut down and the money better used on the first team.

We got £1.9m for Davidson. £800,000 for May. £100,000 for Griffin(?). 

Geoff massively cut back our youth programme in the late 90's so to say we had no one coming through despite the huge expenditure isn't true. For many of the years, the SFA gave big grants to clubs towards their youth programmes, they still do but we're further down the pecking order now in terms of size of grant.

The other thing to remember is that players such as Zander Clark, Liam Caddis, Aaron Comrie,  Ally Gilchrist, Chris Kane, Craig Thomson, Liam Gordon, Scott Brown etc etc may not have made us any money from transfer fees (yet!), but they are all / have all been first team squad players, and have saved us having to pay higher wages to more experienced pros, or signing on fees to players and their agents.

[RandomGuy.]

I realise that this year’s under 20s look to have a bit more about them but going on what you’ve just said the youth coaches are lucky to be in a job. Shaughnessy is 25 so was hardly a youngster when we signed him. So really Comrie, and May are the recent successes of our youth system?

I think it's pretty obvious that our youth team was neglected for a long time and as such we've been furiously trying to swallow up post ground over the past few years. The next five years will define whether our youth development program, and Alastair Stevensons reintroduction, has been a success.

Obviously with the knowledge that Project Brave could completely kill our youth system at any moment.

[RandomGuy.]

Shaughnessy was signed from Aberdeen and has sod all to do with our youth system. That has been a waste of money for years and must have cost us millions. You've to go from Callum Davidson to Stevie May between genuine successes and even then both were almost punted before they got their chance.  Proof of how poor it's been is not only the lack of players getting into Saints team but also the lack of 'ones that got away' and made it at a level similar to or above Saints is decidedly short if not completely blank. I'd have happily seen it shut down and the money better used on the first team.

Theres got to be a middle ground, I think.

[happyaccie]

Serious question guy's after a very impressive start to the season what's gone wrong ? With you aquiring the services of O'Halloran & Scougall I fully expected the saints to cement their top six position with reasonable ease, it may be early to dismiss this possibility but , your recent run is worrying surely.

[PauloPerth]

25 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

So what king of management style can we expect when Tommy arrives at Tannadice?

Total football.  At times you'll become frustrated at the amount of short passes and keeping possession for long spells toying with the opposition rather than simply killing them off with more goals,  but overall you'll love it.  Think Holland in the mid 70's and you'll have a fair idea.

[The Saintee]

33 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

So what king of management style can we expect when Tommy arrives at Tannadice?

Solid. Pragmatic.

Staunch even.

[Alert Mongoose]

Total football.  At times you'll become frustrated at the amount of short passes and keeping possession for long spells toying with the opposition rather than simply killing them off with more goals,  but overall you'll love it.  Think Holland in the mid 70's and you'll have a fair idea.

Cheers - sounds promising.

[RandomGuy.]

Serious question guy's after a very impressive start to the season what's gone wrong ? With you aquiring the services of O'Halloran & Scougall I fully expected the saints to cement their top six position with reasonable ease, it may be early to dismiss this possibility but , your recent run is worrying surely.

MOH injured, Scougall out of position, relying on Cummins and Johnstone for goals.

[happyaccie]

7 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

MOH injured, Scougall out of position, relying on Cummins and Johnstone for goals.

 

Is Scougall out of position the fault of TW or is it due to lack of options ?

[7-2]

14 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

We got £1.9m for Davidson. £800,000 for May. £100,000 for Griffin(?). 

Geoff massively cut back our youth programme in the late 90's so to say we had no one coming through despite the huge expenditure isn't true. For many of the years, the SFA gave big grants to clubs towards their youth programmes, they still do but we're further down the pecking order now in terms of size of grant.

The other thing to remember is that players such as Zander Clark, Liam Caddis, Aaron Comrie,  Ally Gilchrist, Chris Kane, Craig Thomson, Liam Gordon, Scott Brown etc etc may not have made us any money from transfer fees (yet!), but they are all / have all been first team squad players, and have saved us having to pay higher wages to more experienced pros, or signing on fees to players and their agents.

£600k for Griffin. He turned down Derby when £1m/£1.2m had been agreed.

Please let me know how much we received from the SFA that stopped us spending money in the decade between Griffin and May's breakthroughs and the players that became first team regulars in that period. Also why did Geoff decide to cut back after initially deciding it was the way for a club like Saints to go? He wanted a set up like Dundee United's so why stop it?

 It is starting to be more successful now as there has been a big policy change again. That doesn't change the barren decade.

[7-2]

23 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

I think it's pretty obvious that our youth team was neglected for a long time and as such we've been furiously trying to swallow up post ground over the past few years. The next five years will define whether our youth development program, and Alastair Stevensons reintroduction, has been a success.

 

Exactly.

21 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Theres got to be a middle ground, I think.

 

There always is.

[RandomGuy.]

Is Scougall out of position the fault of TW or is it due to lack of options ?

Mix of both, I think. Our natural wingers are MOH. You've then got Alston and Wotherspoon, who both prefer to be in the middle

[PauloPerth]

31 minutes ago, 7-2 said:

£600k for Griffin. He turned down Derby when £1m/£1.2m had been agreed.

Please let me know how much we received from the SFA that stopped us spending money in the decade between Griffin and May's breakthroughs and the players that became first team regulars in that period. Also why did Geoff decide to cut back after initially deciding it was the way for a club like Saints to go? He wanted a set up like Dundee United's so why stop it?

 It is starting to be more successful now as there has been a big policy change again. That doesn't change the barren decade.

I can't give you an exact figure.

The sfa grant changed every year. It depended upon the profit the organisation had e.g. Would be much bigger in 98' when Scotland qualified for World Cup, or seasons with big lucrative internationals.  This money was divided between all the member clubs.  Clubs were assessed depending on their youth programme each season (qualifications of coaches, number of teams, facilities etc) and there was different levels of grant available. I think the highest grant was roughly between £70k-100k. 

We had Henry Hall and Alistair Stevenson at youth licence level, but shortly after relegation neither were still with the club.  My understanding of it, and bear in mind this is a long time ago, was we had to make cuts and like many clubs where money is tight the youth programme is often one of the first things to be hit.  I think Alistair was full time and went to Hibs, but we never replaced the FT head of youth position.

We also brought through Keigan Parker and Keiron Macanespie who were around our first team, both of who went on to play at a higher level.  Both of those would walk into our first team these days.

When you look at the squad we had at the time it would have been very tough to break into our first team.  The money in Scottish football (for transfers etc) was crazy compared to today.  

I think Geoff felt, like you, that it was a big expense for very limited return, whereas with far less money in our game over the past 5-10 seasons, far more young players are getting a chance in the premier league so a youth programe makes much more sense.

[happyaccie]

39 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Mix of both, I think. Our natural wingers are MOH. You've then got Alston and Wotherspoon, who both prefer to be in the middle

 

I saw the lad Scougall play 4-5 games at Bramall lane when I was in Sheffield , he seemed to be suited playing in a wide right midfield role, converting into a right winger when required , sorry I can't recall where he played against us at yours earlier this season ?

[RandomGuy.]

I saw the lad Scougall play 4-5 games at Bramall lane when I was in Sheffield , he seemed to be suited playing in a wide right midfield role, converting into a right winger when required , sorry I can't recall where he played against us at yours earlier this season ?

Most been the right, sometimes on the left. He can beat men with pace and link play well, but there's this nagging feeling we're wasting him by not giving him a more prominent role.

Banter page hits a new low, with the same guy who's spent the last four months demanding TW gets sacked final unveiling his dream replacement.

Jim McIntyre..

[happyaccie]

Just now, RandomGuy. said:

 

Most been the right, sometimes on the left. He can beat men with pace and link play well, but there's this nagging feeling we're wasting him by not giving him a more prominent role.

Banter page hits a new low, with the same guy who's spent the last four months demanding TW gets sacked final unveiling his dream replacement.

Jim McIntyre..

 

I would try Scougall through the middle , as for the TW situation , no way just now should his position even remotely be under threat , as for McIntyre................ ooft lol

[7-2]

2 hours ago, PauloPerth said:

I can't give you an exact figure.

The sfa grant changed every year. It depended upon the profit the organisation had e.g. Would be much bigger in 98' when Scotland qualified for World Cup, or seasons with big lucrative internationals.  This money was divided between all the member clubs.  Clubs were assessed depending on their youth programme each season (qualifications of coaches, number of teams, facilities etc) and there was different levels of grant available. I think the highest grant was roughly between £70k-100k. 

We had Henry Hall and Alistair Stevenson at youth licence level, but shortly after relegation neither were still with the club.  My understanding of it, and bear in mind this is a long time ago, was we had to make cuts and like many clubs where money is tight the youth programme is often one of the first things to be hit.  I think Alistair was full time and went to Hibs, but we never replaced the FT head of youth position.

We also brought through Keigan Parker and Keiron Macanespie who were around our first team, both of who went on to play at a higher level.  Both of those would walk into our first team these days.

When you look at the squad we had at the time it would have been very tough to break into our first team.  The money in Scottish football (for transfers etc) was crazy compared to today.  

I think Geoff felt, like you, that it was a big expense for very limited return, whereas with far less money in our game over the past 5-10 seasons, far more young players are getting a chance in the premier league so a youth programe makes much more sense.

 Geoff wanted a production factory to boost the first team and a big sale every couple of seasons. This didn't happen so he lost faith and cut back but it would still have been an expensive business. 

Macanespie was about the same time as Griffin but I'll give you him.  Parker you are spot on with but that's about it during the 00s. At least they made a name with Saints and decided to move onwards and upwards. I think the closest we've come to having ones that got away were Manny Panther and Jonny Lindsay, both apparently destined for big things, eyebrows raised when they were released, both picked up by Partick to compound that feeling but after a bright start faded out and headed south to lower and non league clubs. Panther at least made a career out of the game.

To be honest, I don't actually care where a first team player comes from.  I kind of think that the romance of having a home grown team is as out of date as dreaming about only 3pm kick offs. It hasn't spolied the most successful spell in our history because, with one notable exception, the squad was a collection of brought in journeymen!

[Center half]

4 minutes ago, 7-2 said:

 Geoff wanted a production factory to boost the first team and a big sale every couple of seasons. This didn't happen so he lost faith and cut back but it would still have been an expensive business. 

Macanespie was about the same time as Griffin but I'll give you him.  Parker you are spot on with but that's about it during the 00s. At least they made a name with Saints and decided to move onwards and upwards. I think the closest we've come to having ones that got away were Manny Panther and Jonny Lindsay, both apparently destined for big things, eyebrows raised when they were released, both picked up by Partick to compound that feeling but after a bright start faded out and headed south to lower and non league clubs. Panther at least made a career out of the game.

To be honest, I don't actually care where a first team player comes from.  I kind of think that the romance of having a home grown team is as out of date as dreaming about only 3pm kick offs. It hasn't spolied the most successful spell in our history because, with one notable exception, the squad was a collection of brought in journeymen!

James McArthur got credited for being dumped by Saints when he was younger, I do not know if he was actually ever on the Youth system though.