haufdaft Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 So what would be a good indication ?CIC numbers falling year on year Attendances falling Revenue falling 5 failed relocations7th in lowest tier of Scottish football 30 points off the top of the league Unable to get a chairman to lead the club.But nevermind win at Annan and everything will be ok [emoji23] You've just answered your own question 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrigtonClyde Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 59 minutes ago, haufdaft said: I think it's dangerous to gauge opinion from fans active on Pie and Bovril. You'll hear the ones that are the most vocal which may or may not represent the views of the majority of Clyde fans. That's a reasonable point, it is only a snapshot of opinion. However, it would be wise to take it on board in conjunction with other factors and sources of information to help gauge an assessment of how they're performing and root causes of problems For example, attendance levels, membership levels, volunteer levels, likely take up of future plans, what appears to be working well, what needs to improve It's entirely commonplace with successful businesses and organisations actively looking to engage with their 'customer base' for feedback. In our case, the first and only time I can remember this was with the consultation process last year which was a positive move in the right direction. This was a big departure from the culture of "if you want information, pay for it and become an owner" , and of course in real terms that equated to 'some' information often tied up in carefully crafted responses Where your organisation is clearly failing in some part or parts of its operation, then to use their own favourite phrase, it's 'due diligence' to source as much information as possible to help find a resolution. P&B is just one one, but can at least represent a view or views held by a section of the support 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfcuk Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 My main fear is simple, we do not have anyone within the support that could bring together 6 or 7 Clyde fans with the relevant skills and experience to form a new board to oust the current one. Only the likes of DisGracey can put together a consortium but I could not trust that c**t as far as I could throw him. Someone mentioned putting the club up for sale and see what happens, why not I suppose?? Maybe not, we have f**k all to our name except a playing license and a small fan base therefore we are pretty much limited to buyers such as the likes of DisGracey and fake money that could buy the club, or we could have some w****r with money buy the club, rename it and move it. I somehow doubt there is someone out there with money burning in his back pocket that fancies buying a club like ours unfortunately, this despite being a club rich in history and tradition, except from a small fanbase it has f**k all else. In my opinion the CIC has been a failure in terms of growing and progressing the club, I also believe that the CIC prevents external investment. I have no idea if it is easier to return the club to a Limited Company and what extra taxation we will open ourselves to in the process. So where does this take us now? Continue with the CIC and hope for the best? Take the chance with a sale? Or just turn the lights out?? Until then, get that c**t Barry out for starters Excellent post Far to sensible for you , who wrote it [emoji23] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfcuk Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Even having been a member of the CIC at one time I don't understand the set up , it's a company right , so who owns it ? Ok members join each year so they own it ? Next year it gets transfered to other owners? So the owners of the club are snapshot of time. I have suggested that the club be put up for sale but who would they be buying it from anyone got any idea as there are no shareholders 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STTOFO Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Supporting the team does no good, so YOU f**k off Such personal aggression, calm down presh. Like your fellow disciple SLW, you have totally misinterpreted the acronym but on the other hand I am glad you have confirmed the Gracey association. No harm in changing horses sweet cheeks, after all you do have history in this regard, and seeing as Chappers likes to quote SWC how about I leave you with this “ The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end , there it is.” "A few quid" LMAO STTOFO Edited February 23, 2017 by STTOFO 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggy Snake Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 10 hours ago, cfcuk said: Even having been a member of the CIC at one time I don't understand the set up , it's a company right , so who owns it ? Ok members join each year so they own it ? Next year it gets transfered to other owners? So the owners of the club are snapshot of time. I have suggested that the club be put up for sale but who would they be buying it from anyone got any idea as there are no shareholders It’s not that complicated and has been explained by the board multiple times. The club chooses to use the term member (or sometimes slightly incorrectly owner) to describe its shareholders. Every member effectively owns one share. The idea being no matter how much money any individual puts in they can’t buy a controlling stake in the club. Like any football club, we are effectively always up for sale to anyone who wants to buy us. The buyer would just have to approach the board with their offer/plan who would then put it to the members to vote on. The owners could vote to remove the CIC and sell the club (a certain percentage would obviously be required for such a big change). Given (as you’ve said) most people are just members out of sentimentality, a group or individual who could convince people they have sufficient money to invest in the club and a good plan to take it forward, could probably agree a deal to buy the club for next to nothing if people bought into their pitch. But, as has been said by many, as a club we have very little to offer so no one is likely to be interested 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfcuk Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, Jaggy Snake said: It’s not that complicated and has been explained by the board multiple times. The club chooses to use the term member (or sometimes slightly incorrectly owner) to describe its shareholders. Every member effectively owns one share. The idea being no matter how much money any individual puts in they can’t buy a controlling stake in the club. Like any football club, we are effectively always up for sale to anyone who wants to buy us. The buyer would just have to approach the board with their offer/plan who would then put it to the members to vote on. The owners could vote to remove the CIC and sell the club (a certain percentage would obviously be required for such a big change). Given (as you’ve said) most people are just members out of sentimentality, a group or individual who could convince people they have sufficient money to invest in the club and a good plan to take it forward, could probably agree a deal to buy the club for next to nothing if people bought into their pitch. But, as has been said by many, as a club we have very little to offer so no one is likely to be interested my point was you mention shareholder ? I was a member /owner for two years and now I am not , so am i still a shareholder? so let me get this right by being an owner you are a shareholder (you own a share ) which if you don't renew is taken from you and basically sold on. iyou go along with the party line that it is likely nobody is interested , why wont they put the club up for sale see if somebody is interested. bit like saying nobody would buy my house , when there is no for sale sign 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haufdaft Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Like any football club, we are effectively always up for sale to anyone who wants to buy us. This is what I don't understand when people suggest putting the club up for sale. In theory, the club is always up for sale to any buyer with a plan and vision accepted by the members. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Haddock Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Seems clear to meSLW putting aside all of the above and as you are probably the only one on here who has had an insight into the running of Clyde FC can you enlighten us on the following? Is it a lack of finance that is pulling Clyde down or a failure in management at Boardroom level? There are many on here who say what should happen and amongst the most vociferous are those who belittle the CIC model and refuse to join when membership would surely strengthen their case if they could garner enough support at an A/EGM. I note that you are no 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaggy Snake Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 32 minutes ago, cfcuk said: my point was you mention shareholder ? I was a member /owner for two years and now I am not , so am i still a shareholder? so let me get this right by being an owner you are a shareholder (you own a share ) which if you don't renew is taken from you and basically sold on. iyou go along with the party line that it is likely nobody is interested , why wont they put the club up for sale see if somebody is interested. bit like saying nobody would buy my house , when there is no for sale sign Yes, as the CIC is a membership scheme, I assume you essentially forfeit your share by not renewing your membership annually. So what exactly do you want the club to do? Stick a for sale sign outside Broadwood? The board were criticised, and rightly so, for publicly stating they were trying to relocate the club, as it put off people from Cumbernauld supporting us. If the board state they are looking for someone to buy the club, it would put off anyone who might have invested in the CIC itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Sally Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 It’s not that complicated and has been explained by the board multiple times. The club chooses to use the term member (or sometimes slightly incorrectly owner) to describe its shareholders. Every member effectively owns one share. The idea being no matter how much money any individual puts in they can’t buy a controlling stake in the club. Like any football club, we are effectively always up for sale to anyone who wants to buy us. The buyer would just have to approach the board with their offer/plan who would then put it to the members to vote on. The owners could vote to remove the CIC and sell the club (a certain percentage would obviously be required for such a big change). Given (as you’ve said) most people are just members out of sentimentality, a group or individual who could convince people they have sufficient money to invest in the club and a good plan to take it forward, could probably agree a deal to buy the club for next to nothing if people bought into their pitch. But, as has been said by many, as a club we have very little to offer so no one is likely to be interested Great post.But I'd also add you wouldn't need to sell the club and I'd argue that makes Clyde even more attractive for investment.The only reason someone would want to actually own the whole thing is if they wanted to resell it later. That's unlikely in modern Scottish football therefore if they are looking to invest it's probably philanthropic or just that they want involved in football. No one wants lumbered with a club they can't sell when their money runs out. Clyde offers control and the ability to walk away without the burden of selling something no one wants to buy.They could get control of the club by being co-opted on the the board and then confirmed by members at an AGM. There is no other club where it's easier for someone to come in with money and take control. Once in control, there is nothing stopping them paying themselves a wage. It's an absolute myth that money can't be made from a CIC. Money being made from being in control of Clyde is probably impossible at the current time though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfcuk Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 40 minutes ago, Jaggy Snake said: Yes, as the CIC is a membership scheme, I assume you essentially forfeit your share by not renewing your membership annually. So what exactly do you want the club to do? Stick a for sale sign outside Broadwood? The board were criticised, and rightly so, for publicly stating they were trying to relocate the club, as it put off people from Cumbernauld supporting us. If the board state they are looking for someone to buy the club, it would put off anyone who might have invested in the CIC itself. you assume ? so you dont know either ? , having been explained to you numerous times by the board maybe at the time of renewal it would be useful for them to explain the ownership model again or maybe even put it up on the website might help boost numbers all about opinions still think we should try and sell it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrigtonClyde Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 AFAIK, the model is set up as an annual renewal. So for that year, whoever are the registered members are the equal owners of the club. It seems each person can only have one equal share. So for example, if the annual levy is £35, I doubt if someone decided to pay £350, they'd receive 10 "voting shares". Or is that wrong? Relates to the suggestion anyone can come in with X amount and seize control easily. Presumably someone paying £350 would need to find 9 others to allocate that to, and then in the case of any vote, mobilize their troops. The latter's possible but likely deliberately inconvenient. The current system should be adjusted with more flexibility, it's too rigid. If we're trying to source people with the acumen to really take us forward, why should they be invoiced for giving up their time? If they were given a free hand to operate using their expertise, the checks and balances are still in place to consider any major proposals. In the main they'd be generating money, that's what they do. The only incentive for anyone to want to buy a club would be in line with what Fergus McCann did, where he felt so confident in the potential and his plans, that he knew he'd not only turn a club completely around but also make a profit then walk away. Both parties benefited. I don't mind of they put the club up for sale, and made that clear either publicly or more likely through specific channels, but I just don't see the likelihood of any takers. What's the incentive when they would likely be enthusiasts and could be offered a role without the need for cash exchanging hands ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxruby Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 http://companydb.uk/sc006731-the-clyde-football-club-cichttps://www.clydefc.co.uk/downloads/Articles-of-Association.docIt has been a quiet morning. I have posted these links as they may, and I do mean "may", provide some answers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthLanarkshireWhite Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Harry Haddock said: Seems clear to meSLW putting aside all of the above and as you are probably the only one on here who has had an insight into the running of Clyde FC can you enlighten us on the following? Is it a lack of finance that is pulling Clyde down or a failure in management at Boardroom level? There are many on here who say what should happen and amongst the most vociferous are those who belittle the CIC model and refuse to join when membership would surely strengthen their case if they could garner enough support at an A/EGM. I note that you are no It is not as simple as one or the other of those two. There are several reasons in my opinion, and it is only my opinion... 1. History - financial pressure brought about by the initial over-spending which put the whole organisation at risk. 2. History - the very poor relationship with NLC which we had a hand in bringing about by not paying our bills etc. 3. People - not necessarily enough skilled and capable people to operate a 'successful' football club. 4. People - the lack of number 3 above, means one or two individuals drive the agenda 5. People - the very, very poor relationships which exist within the club and the support (read any thread on here) mean that those who may have the skills, time and motivation either never volunteer or do so, then quickly realise the folly of that decision. To work 5-20 hours a week for no pay and be verbally or otherwise abused, or have your motivations regularly questioned simply does not work for most people. Those who can stick it out do by either avoiding the 'noise' or are thick-skinned enough to hear it and ignore it. Neither of these are good grounds for relationship building. 6. People - in my experience too many 'football people' are not the type of individual I would want in my life. Billy Reid, Graham Roberts, John Brown and Barry Ferguson - who would volunteer to spend unpaid time in that company? 7. Supporters - 500 fans, 600 opinions and not many of them put forward in a rationale, supportive manner. 8. Supporters - those who stand for the Board too often think like fans and not Directors with responsibilities e.g. average 50% wage rises awarded to the 2004 team despite the financial issues, and all of whom jumped ship when a better offer came their way ( and why would they not?). This is understandable as we all want Clyde to be the best they can be, but you must make long-term, strategic decisions well. 9. CIC - Structure based on JA's previous employment experience. Installed to protect the club from making the same mistake again, but in my view a restriction on progress in some ways. 10. Community & growth - we made several big errors when we went to Cumbernauld and have never recovered. In some ways, name change aside, EK was an opportunity to correct that. To your point about me not being a CIC member, that is related to why I no longer attend with the exception of the very odd game. I will not engage in any meaningful way for the foreseeable future, but that has nothing to do with the CIC. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Sally Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I never said money couldn't be made.....that is the sole purpose of them, to raise as much in short timespans as possible. George Galloway and Ken O'Keefe regularly exploited them with the Viva Palestina movement, raising six figure sums on a regular basis over a two/three year period. For a football club which doesn't want to just play at it, with a core of 500 fans, it's a recipe for eternal shiteness. I didn't say you had said anything, it's not always about you.Your description of the primary feature of a CIC "to raise as much in short timespans as possible" is entirely wrong. The primary core features of a CIC from the CIC Association are:- Assets owned by the company are held in an asset lock which secures those assets to applications for the good use of community.- Limitations applied to dividend and interest payments made to shareholders and financiers ensure a profit can be made, but the primary focus remains on achieving benefit for the communityYou also name two people who as far as I know have never been involved in Community Interest Companies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthLanarkshireWhite Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 11 hours ago, STTOFO said: Supporting the team does no good, so YOU f**k off Such personal aggression, calm down presh. Like your fellow disciple SLW, you have totally misinterpreted the acronym but on the other hand I am glad you have confirmed the Gracey association. No harm in changing horses sweet cheeks, after all you do have history in this regard, and seeing as Chappers likes to quote SWC how about I leave you with this “ The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end , there it is.” "A few quid" LMAO STTOFO I'll bite. What does STTOFO mean then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfcuk Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I'll bite. What does STTOFO mean then? Support the team or **** off 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthLanarkshireWhite Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 10 minutes ago, cfcuk said: Support the team or **** off Yes, but he is claiming it isn't that with this reply. So it must be something else. Like your fellow disciple SLW, you have totally misinterpreted the acronym 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfcuk Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 http://companydb.uk/sc006731-the-clyde-football-club-cichttps://www.clydefc.co.uk/downloads/Articles-of-Association.docIt has been a quiet morning. I have posted these links as they may, and I do mean "may", provide some answers. Cheers Max[emoji106] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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