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chukka umuna



Is that guy in the right party?
Always seems to be against something since he shat out the leadership contest.

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I am talking about the statement from the groups referenced above.  If you had taken the time to read it you would not have posted that.  Then again if you’re not interested in accuracy you may have posted it anyway.
I think anti-Semitism should be opposed.  I don’t think continually claiming anti-Zionism is heavily linked to anti-Semitism helps in such opposition.


Here's the full text of the statement against Corbyn. They describe quite clearly what the problem is and at no point state that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are the same thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43540795

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Denial of racism because of pedantry and semantics gets on my tits. I hate the Poles/Jews/English/Romanians/Muslims but I'm not a racist because they aren't races. Utter shite.

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I entirely agree that it's possible to criticise Israel over Palestine without being anti-semitic, and also agree that it's common for those defending Israel against those points to make false accusations of anti-semitism.

This only makes it all the more disheartening when people scramble to defend genuinely examples of anti-semitism, which that mural unquestionably is, by bringing Israel into it. It's reprehensible and there are no two ways about it. When you tie something like that into legitimate criticism of the state of Israel which entirely avoids anti-semitism, you're only discrediting the multitude of valid non-bigoted arguments and give ammunition to those who seek to discredit those legitimate arguments. 

That's aside from the fact anti-semitism is fucking horrible, of course.

Edited by Dunning1874

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39 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 


Here's the full text of the statement against Corbyn. They describe quite clearly what the problem is and at no point state that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are the same thing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43540795

 

“At best, this derives from the far left's obsessive hatred of Zionism, Zionists and Israel.”

 

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Here's the full text of the statement against Corbyn. They describe quite clearly what the problem is and at no point state that anti-Zionism and anti-semitism are the same thing.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43540795

The repeated use of the term 'far left' in that statement is a sign of its intentions.

 

Trying to associate those on the left with those on the 'far right'. It's quite sinister actually.

 

I would describe corbyn as left wing.

 

The idea that he is 'the figurehead for an anti-semitic political culture' is absolutely bollocks.

 

 

 

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It depends on whether David Schneider was a known opponent of corbyn or not.  
 

Fuckin hell!

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Btw, it’s clear that there is a problem with anti-semitism in the Labour Party. Absolutely clear. You just need to look at the frenzied twitter mob today, or the comments on articles by the New Statesman on their Facebook page.

 

My local private CLP Facebook page has more discussion on what a great people Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker are fighting back against zionists than they do about things like education. It’s utterly depressing.

 

I don’t think Corbyn is anti-Semitic, and part of me wants to give him the benefit of the doubt over that mural comment, but he has been far too weak on all of this. His statements over the past couple of days have been better, but he should have nipped this all in the bud years ago.

 

Checking to see if someone is pro or anti Corbyn before deciding whether a criticism is valid or not is pretty frightening too, but i suppose this is politics today.

 

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The repeated use of the term 'far left' in that statement is a sign of its intentions.  
Trying to associate those on the left with those on the 'far right'. It's quite sinister actually.
 
I would describe corbyn as left wing.
 
The idea that he is 'the figurehead for an anti-semitic political culture' is absolutely bollocks.
 
 
 


I'm inclined to believe what they are saying considering who they are. These aren't fringe groups, but Jewish leaders. At best Corbyn isn't anti-Semitic and is merely incredibly naive, and leaving aside how poorly suited that makes him to be in the running for PM it shows how little concern Corbyn has, or until very recently had, towards Jewish people. The leader of the Labour Party has to be held to the highest standard on this. He is a hugely prominent person and a figurehead of left politics, a form of leftism that has significant elements of anti-Semitism within it. Having someone in a prominent position taking this attitude towards anti-Semitism gives a level of acceptability towards it. That can be seen with the responses on Twitter.

Whether you think the reaction is over the top or not, Corbyn's actions are clearly troubling. He has associated himself with people who have very anti-Semitic views, has joined at least two, possibly three, Facebook groups with anti-Semitic posts, has called anti-Semitic groups 'friends' and hasn't appeared to take the issue anywhere near seriously enough. I don't believe he is an anti-Semite himself, but he has aligned himself with people and views that the leader of the Labour Party shouldn't. His worldview is an anti-western one, and a lot of significant people with anti-western views are anti-Semitic and I think this is how he has found himself associating with those sorts of people. But that doesn't excuse those associations. You implied earlier that the anti-Semitism issue has been weaponised against him, I don't believe that is true, but even if it is that doesn't change the fact that Corbyn made that post, that Corbyn associated himself with people and groups with those views, that he chose to describe Hezbollah as 'friends' and that is going to seriously anger Jewish people and those who abhor prejudice (which is going to be a lot of people in the Labour Party). If the leader of the Labour Party can say these things and associate with these people then perhaps it is acceptable to hold those views yourself.

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“At best, this derives from the far left's obsessive hatred of Zionism, Zionists and Israel.”
 


That's a possible explanation of why anti-Semitism has got a foothold here, not a suggestion that the two are the same.

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A leading member of Jews for/in labour was on daily politics this morning sticking up for Corbyn. She is older and has known him for many years, and told Jo Coburn he hasn't got an anti semetic bone in his body. That is when she could get a word in from being talked over, interupted and being told she was wrong by the host, and the Tory and the labour MPs who were appearing on the show. Definite agenda on show.

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That's a possible explanation of why anti-Semitism has got a foothold here, not a suggestion that the two are the same.

You also brought in the politics of the middle east - something that those on the 'far left' are criticised for doing.

I think the established and supposedly 'mainstream' Jewish leaders (another interesting phrase from that statement) that put out that statement are hellbent on attacking corbyn.

Arguments are being stoked up here and there's plenty of politics at play.

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A leading member of Jews for/in labour was on daily politics this morning sticking up for Corbyn. She is older and has known him for many years, and told Jo Coburn he hasn't got an anti semetic bone in his body. That is when she could get a word in from being talked over, interupted and being told she was wrong by the host, and the Tory and the labour MPs who were appearing on the show. Definite agenda on show.


Jewish Voice for Labour by any chance? They seem to exist to deny anti-Semitism exists in the Labour Party. There was some sort of controversy during conference regarding them where they weren't letting ordinary Jewish members in, one person apparently barred because he had an Israeli flag on his lapel pin. I think they were created in response to the established Jewish labour groups who take a dimmer view on anti-Semitism.

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Fuckin hell!

I think you've misunderstood the context of my point.

The discussion was about whether or not he was biased because he was a Jew - and I was pointing out that the accusation is more that he is politically motivated (as there is plenty of Jewish support for corbyn).

After reading the twitter post again I was more than comfortable with it as a solid definition for anti-semitism.

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Jewish Voice for Labour by any chance? They seem to exist to deny anti-Semitism exists in the Labour Party. There was some sort of controversy during conference regarding them where they weren't letting ordinary Jewish members in, one person apparently barred because he had an Israeli flag on his lapel pin. I think they were created in response to the established Jewish labour groups who take a dimmer view on anti-Semitism.


Thanks for that jmo, I had no idea who or what they were, but the woman seemed genuine, and she was getting a hard time while trying to get her points across.

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What about the leader of the labour party being held to account for illegal wars?

As for corbyn, incredibly naive imo and not suited to be PM

 

 

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As a country, Israel is a massive c*nt run by a bunch of c*nts. The fact that they happen to be Jewish is neither here nor there. Anyone who defends Israel has not been paying attention.

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31 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

What about the leader of the labour party being held to account for illegal wars?

As for corbyn, incredibly naive imo and not suited to be PM

 

 

This is patent nonsense given the roll call of colossally racist incompetent wankers that have held the office over the years.

 

I don't think Corbyn himself is anti-semitic. He's just incredibly naive and is very much happy to indulge dodgy groups which hold similar views to himself. There's a very toxic element of the left that are well organised, have helped to finance Corbyn's takeover of the party and as such are likely viewed as undroppable. It would be an incredibly bold statement for him or anyone to do it but it needs done and ASAP if Labour have aspirations to build a genuinely inclusive and progressive movement.  Another problem with this is that the centre-right of the party have spent so long shitting their pants over literally anything they could any day they could that there's now a siege mentality among the Corbyn left (Canary, Paul Mason etc) who are happy to dismiss this as yet another smear when it's actually valid criticism for once. 

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51 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 


Jewish Voice for Labour by any chance? They seem to exist to deny anti-Semitism exists in the Labour Party. There was some sort of controversy during conference regarding them where they weren't letting ordinary Jewish members in, one person apparently barred because he had an Israeli flag on his lapel pin. I think they were created in response to the established Jewish labour groups who take a dimmer view on anti-Semitism.

 

 

Already seen people snidely trying to accuse them of being useful idiots. Great praxis. Really helpful.

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