parsforlife Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I don't think any clubs have a problem with playing Peterhead and Elgin at the right level. Part-time teams making regular 300+ mile round trips for a league game in the fourth tier in front of 350 fans is insanity, whether that be a Saturday or Tuesday night. But should playing those games in tier 3 be acceptable? I see some merit to league 2 sides going regional with the higher end tier 5 sides , this would see a better distribution of clubs (no massive gap between Aberdeen and Stirling) and a stronger top end regional sit-up, however that comes with a cost of status for some clubs and a funding issue in how to correctly support 32 clubs who are used to notablely different historic prize/dividend money. But that needs to be recognised as a huge concession, and if the moaning about not joining a league with longish journeys against certain teams is just going to be directed a elsewhere then you do question why change the current structure. It also needs to be remembered regionisation far from eliminates long journeys, you'll still be traveling half the country, which for central belt clubs is what they'll do anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakamura Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 This I agree with but as more and more people are showing support in favour each day of reconstruction I think something has too happen. The problem is, some people up here want radical changes and some are afraid of change. I'd rather do it in babysitters, so maybe reconstruct the national leagues then look at the structure of regionalisation after that and do it all over a number of years slowly and steadily. I know how you feel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 I get what your saying but what is the point of creating a pyramid system if Lower Seniors and Juniors don't want to travel the distance midweek - I reckon the clubs should be asked and if they choose not to then don't allow them into the pyramid system - each club would be better getting a letter from SFA asking if they would like to participate in pyramid system. I only mentioned the Juniors in the league, opposed to the Highland League and Lowlands etc because (if memory serves me right) the juniors have done better in the Scottish Cup and have bigger crowds to sustain them (I may be wrong but just going by memory). Something has to be done though as the current system is garbage Your suggestions come from a fevered imagination, diving in without considering what has happened up to this point and the consequences of implementation. Do you work for the football authorities already, if not, get your cv in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 All the SFA need do is withdraw their referees to bring the SJFA back to the table as far as the pyramid is concerned, however the SFA are not interested in doing that, and it takes us into unknown territory if the Juniors clubs react badly to such a confrontational act. Appetite for change has always been minimal or non existant unless alot of money is involved. Make no mistake there would not even be discussion nor a single change to anything had the rangers fiasco not happened. Wed still have spl sfl 1 up 1 down and the finiancial gulf between spl and sfl. Anyway the point about long journeys in to play against minimal support could be argued all day. If you want to have bigger leagues then your going to have stenhousemuir type clubs in the 2nd tier, thats unavoidable becuase we simply dont have enough big clubs to pack out 2 large divisions like england do. Under this set up only the best part time clubs will make it to play in nationwide leagues and the long distance travel will be twice a year rather than 4 times. You will also get games against bigger full time sides and a decent season could see you in the play offs for the premiership. That has to be more attractive than getting promoted to SPFL 2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpoonTon Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 As I've already said in this thread, if we're serious about a proper pyramid structure then it probably needs to start at the 3rd tier. Whether it's two leagues or three at that level, I think that's what's needed in terms of incentive. So: 16 16 12/12/12 or 16/16 Perhaps even: 12 12 12/12/12 or 16/16 And as I also said before, there would need to be integrated cup competitions to allow all those teams to feel like they are part of the national system. It's really a question of whether or not it's worth doing, but if the belief is there that it's worth it, then I think the system would need to be changed dramatically to allow that to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazza Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 out of that list, morton, st mir queens livi and dunfermline are full time ,depending on how they are doing airdie and ayr utd could be looking at full time. thats not too bad going A lot less bigger away supports in new structure. Ayr and Dunfermline will probably bring in crowds comparable to some of the existing teams but you are only guaranteed a single home game against them. Livingston's average crowd will drop substantially and I think Queens would also suffer from not having away crowds from ,Rangers, Hibs, Falkirk and St Mirren twice a season. Instead they will have Ayr, Dunfermline, St Mirren and Morton just once a season as only likely decent sizes away supports. For Ayr and Airdrie it is a small step up so at the moment instead of 2 decent sized away supports from Dunfermline we maybe get 4 in a 16 team tier 2.Though Ayr's crowds have boosted as we have a decent chance of promotion this year I'm not sure we would attract as much or more if we were playing Albion Rovers in a mid table tier 2 game. I think Ayr at the moment are some sort of hybrid between full time and part time. Likes of Airdrie, Peterhead, Dumbarton and Alloa would probably next closest but really I think would need to build from bottom up like Hamilton and getting to 2nd tier as it is now with decent away supports 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 29, 2015 Share Posted December 29, 2015 But should playing those games in tier 3 be acceptable? I see some merit to league 2 sides going regional with the higher end tier 5 sides , this would see a better distribution of clubs (no massive gap between Aberdeen and Stirling) and a stronger top end regional sit-up, however that comes with a cost of status for some clubs and a funding issue in how to correctly support 32 clubs who are used to notablely different historic prize/dividend money. But that needs to be recognised as a huge concession, and if the moaning about not joining a league with longish journeys against certain teams is just going to be directed a elsewhere then you do question why change the current structure. It also needs to be remembered regionisation far from eliminates long journeys, you'll still be traveling half the country, which for central belt clubs is what they'll do anyway. I come from the point of view that only full-time clubs should be playing national league football, but the logistics of that is probably impractical, but we should strive to regionalise the leagues as far up as you can, hence 16 x 16 (or 12x12) then regional below that appears to be the more sensible way forward. Below that I think a three region set-up is the way to go, the structure is already there in the Juniors bar a few tweeks (Tayside joining the HFL for example), creates more local games, reduces costs, perhaps more attractive to sponsors etc. It also makes it easier for away fans to attend matches. I’ve used the example before of being at an Albion Rovers v Elgin match a couple of seasons back (on a Saturday) and 12 Elgin fans turned up in a crowd of 328 (or something like that). Would Elgin fans rather have been playing the likes of Peterhead or Nairn or Clach that day instead? Would Albion Rovers rather had been playing Pollok, Talbot or Linlithgow with a larger away support? I was at a Stirling Albion v Peterhead (again on a Saturday) not long afterwards and there was maybe 25 Peterhead fans. Surely we need to create the environment where more fans are champing at the bit to go to away games. We need to move away from smaller SPFL clubs relying on handouts to keep them going, and it should not be a bar on reform. We need to create more interest at lower levels and I don’t consider Edinburgh City winning a play-off against Montrose once in a blue moon for the honour of taking 10 fans to Elgin will ever achieve that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 16-16 leaves the same clubs at national as 12-10-10. I don't see why only full-time teams should be playing nationality, I struggle to see a guy earning good money and feel sympathetic about them having to travel an extra couple of hours twice a season than they would regionally. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 16-16 leaves the same clubs at national as 12-10-10. I don't see why only full-time teams should be playing nationality, I struggle to see a guy earning good money and feel sympathetic about them having to travel an extra couple of hours twice a season than they would regionally. Wages are immaterial, I just don't think that part-time players should be travelling the length of the country for a league game, sometimes in midweek. The fact that they are part-time suggests that they play for a smaller club, meaning even fewer fans are going to bother following their team. 12 Elgin fans at Cliftonhill in a crowd of less than 350 is not the direction the game should remain headed. It needs a complete re-think although I'm realistic enough to know that's never likely to happen, far too much self-interest, far too much self importance attributed to a wee club having the "honour" of playing nationally. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 A lot less bigger away supports in new structure. Ayr and Dunfermline will probably bring in crowds comparable to some of the existing teams but you are only guaranteed a single home game against them. Livingston's average crowd will drop substantially and I think Queens would also suffer from not having away crowds from ,Rangers, Hibs, Falkirk and St Mirren twice a season. Instead they will have Ayr, Dunfermline, St Mirren and Morton just once a season as only likely decent sizes away supports. For Ayr and Airdrie it is a small step up so at the moment instead of 2 decent sized away supports from Dunfermline we maybe get 4 in a 16 team tier 2.Though Ayr's crowds have boosted as we have a decent chance of promotion this year I'm not sure we would attract as much or more if we were playing Albion Rovers in a mid table tier 2 game. I think Ayr at the moment are some sort of hybrid between full time and part time. Likes of Airdrie, Peterhead, Dumbarton and Alloa would probably next closest but really I think would need to build from bottom up like Hamilton and getting to 2nd tier as it is now with decent away supports OK fair point but first off all you wont normally have rangers and hibs in the championship these last 2 seasons have been a bit fucked up, secondly why would queens livi and Morton see their crowds suffer? Surely they'd be at the top end of the table knocking on the door of the premiership? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Wages are immaterial, I just don't think that part-time players should be travelling the length of the country for a league game, sometimes in midweek. The fact that they are part-time suggests that they play for a smaller club, meaning even fewer fans are going to bother following their team. 12 Elgin fans at Cliftonhill in a crowd of less than 350 is not the direction the game should remain headed. It needs a complete re-think although I'm realistic enough to know that's never likely to happen, far too much self-interest, far too much self importance attributed to a wee club having the "honour" of playing nationally. Why are wages immaterial? Surely the wages paid are a reflection on commitment that should reasonably expected from players? So you point out a low crowd, but are we seriously saying their are hundreds of Elgin fans that will travel to Angus but aren't traveling any further? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Why are wages immaterial? Surely the wages paid are a reflection on commitment that should reasonably expected from players? So you point out a low crowd, but are we seriously saying their are hundreds of Elgin fans that will travel to Angus but aren't traveling any further? Wages are immaterial because I'm happy to believe that there are plenty of players in the Juniors being paid more than some players in League Two so how does that fit in with wages = commitment? however that is irrelevant to the way a league system should be structured. I think it's maybe reasonable to assume that more than 12 Elgin fans would travel to more local games on a Saturday than Coatbridge. Do you think 12 fans travelling on a Saturday shows that maybe what we currently have is not working very well? We should be providing a structure where fans want to go to games. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Wages are immaterial because I'm happy to believe that there are plenty of players in the Juniors being paid more than some players in League Two so how does that fit in with wages = commitment? however that is irrelevant to the way a league system should be structured. I think it's maybe reasonable to assume that more than 12 Elgin fans would travel to more local games on a Saturday than Coatbridge. Do you think 12 fans travelling on a Saturday shows that maybe what we currently have is not working very well? We should be providing a structure where fans want to go to games. Define local games, are East Fife local to Stranraer? Forfar to Peterhead? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itzdrk Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 Agree, If Elgin can only muster 12 fans for a game they should be playing local games like all the other irrelevances. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakamura Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 How much do teams get paid now for being in league 2 / league 1 in prize money or what not? Do we know any numbers? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 30, 2015 Share Posted December 30, 2015 How much do teams get paid now for being in league 2 / league 1 in prize money or what not? Do we know any numbers? They are out there, the main one I remember is finishing 10th in league 2 is worth 30k, before cups are counted, once cups are included with 1st round exits its about 50k 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionel hutz Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) They are out there, the main one I remember is finishing 10th in league 2 is worth 30k, before cups are counted, once cups are included with 1st round exits its about 50k Scottish League One revenue distribution £100k, £91k, £74k, £72k, £69k, £68k, £65k, £63k, £61k, £59k Scottish League Two revenue distribution £56,970, £54,860, £52,750, £50,640, £48,530, £46,420, £44,310, £42,200, £40,090, £37,980http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/aberdeen/1331865-spfl-sides-to-share-record-21m-prize-money-payout-in-201516-season/ This will increase with the new TV Deal next season... Edited December 31, 2015 by Marr1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazza Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 OK fair point but first off all you wont normally have rangers and hibs in the championship these last 2 seasons have been a bit fucked up, secondly why would queens livi and Morton see their crowds suffer? Surely they'd be at the top end of the table knocking on the door of the premiership? Livingston in terms of fanbase now I think fairly comparable to Airdrie, Dumbarton, Peterhead and with crowds 700-950 if there is little to no away support. Only 2869 for last years challenge cup final. Fair enough it was Alloa the opponents but a Livy pushing for promotion you would have to be an optomist that they might bring in another 500 or so people. Not sure how they have managed to retain full time football and with a lot less away support surely couldn't. Morton I guess guess would probably be a top end team and having derbies with St Mirren will be vital. Have looked at their recent crowds the Raith game okay was a Friday night so will give so leaway but they are probably sitting at about 1500 or so home fans where they are pushing for a play off slot. So really you would need to be pushing for the title to mitigate the loss of large away supports so a best case scenario your finances might stay about the same. As the current system works there really is the competition to incentive ambitious smaller teams to build towards full time football if they want to become a stable top 2 tier team. There would be much less chance of bigger teams coming down if there was a bigger top flight. Fair enough the Rangers issue is because of the death of the old club but Hibs are there on their incompetence like St Mirren and quite possibly Dundee Utd next year. A bigger top flight makes it a bit easier for these teams to bring in a couple of players in Jan that will keep them up. When Inverness or Hamilton went back down the media didn't really care but the odd bigger club in the league gives the 2nd tier a bit more exposure and a boost in gates for teams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Define local games, are East Fife local to Stranraer? Forfar to Peterhead? More clubs in closer proximity to those encountered whilst playing in nationwide league. A league which reduces the travelling of clubs compared to that of a nationwide league. C'mon, I think we all know what is meant when discussing regional leagues and less travelling. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 More clubs in closer proximity to those encountered whilst playing in nationwide league. A league which reduces the travelling of clubs compared to that of a nationwide league. C'mon, I think we all know what is meant when discussing regional leagues and less travelling. Which wasn't my point 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.