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Mr Bairn

League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

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4 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

The idea that only playing Celtic/Rangers twice a season will catapult the Best of the Rest into title contention is incredibly naive.

BTW the Scandinavians tried a cross border tournament some years ago, the Royal League; it ran for 3 seasons and was then quietly put out of its misery. The idea it would be revitalized with our participation is, I'm afraid, laughable.

 

 

It wouldn't catapult but it would be a step in the right direction. They have the massive advantage in resources but they have all subtle advantages as well.

What was the reason behind its failure? Was it bickering, format or interest? The ingredients are there for an exciting tournament and just because of one failed attempt doesn't mean a few adjustments couldn't make it work. 

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8 hours ago, Murgie McDubh said:

<snip>

You may have more authority than me on the intensity of the Dunfermline Raith rivalry but I don't think you can say with certainty that some Raith fans couldn't embrace the idea of 1 team representing fife football in a 16 league if it's sold properly.

<snip> 

You've accused me of closing the door on clubs but the door's already closed. What's the point of promotion and relegation when there's glass ceiling you can't penetrate? What I actually want is the door to be opened for as many as possible but to do that you need clubs as strong as you can get them. 

I don't agree with your view of the relegation battle. If it doesn't involve your team most people are meh and if your team are in a relegation battle because they have shown a lack of fight they won't get bumper crowds for a relegation decider. Aberdeen under Mark McGhee were in real danger of relegation and we were getting crowds of less than 8000. The story of the top of our game is what matters. If you want captivate the folk who only watch the EPL, the folk who've lost interest in Scottish football and the folk who are folk apathetic to anything that doesn't involve their team, you need to change the story at the top. It's the main course and everything else is sauce and right now we're being served roast dung so the other stories of Scottish football however good, can't improve the flavour.

I think you've too readily dismissive of a transnational tournament between 4 similar sized nations. First it's not a 3rd tier European tournament. The best 8 teams of each nation compete even if they don't all compete in the group stage. You've asked me to provide details regarding travel expenses and TV deals, which you know I can't but I look at the pro12 rugby who already have to fly twice to Italy, 4 times to Ireland and have invited a South African team to play in the in the league, I can't see travel being a big issue for us. I'd say it was up to you to provide evidence to dismiss outright.

<snip>

If you can get a TV deal for the league cup group stages I'm pretty sure a little something could be worked out for tournament featuring Rosenborg, Malmo, Copenhagen, Brøndby amongst others. You brought up the champions league and their control of broadcasting and I've already said what I think of that but whatever the situation there you could still play and broadcast on europa league days. I'm in no position to say for sure this tournament would work but to neither are you in any position to dismiss it as a non starter.

Youth system and again I'm no position to prove it could work but you asked what's in it for the clubs. For most clubs I don't see what they gain from a youth system. They must be expensive to run and most of the time they don't churn out first team players. I would say stage 1 (the academy) and stage 2 (education at a league club) work and we're producing capable first team players then I don't see the difference between getting these players at 14 and getting these when they're ready for first team football.

Good of you to reply. From the points again I've highlighted:

- How many Raith fans would count as "some"? You may well get a few Rovers fans who wouldn't be against the idea of supporting the Pars in a game (although given the cheers that go up at Stark's Park and Central Park, Cowdenbeath if they announce Dunfermline are behind at half time, I can't see them being numerous if they do actually exist) you're not going to convince them to spend money supporting us. Especially if there is some sort of second tier competition for the clubs that have been excluded from the closed shop. Or are we just binning 20 odd teams with hundreds of years of tradition? 

- There may well be a glass ceiling in terms of winning the title but you do know there are other rewards, right? While you seem dismissive of the Europa League, for many supporters and clubs it is a great adventure even of it only lasts two or three preliminary rounds. You'd be saying to all the clubs outwith the closed shop that they couldn't ever get to play in Europe - either on a UEFA tournament or the transnational cup you're proposing. So if a group of players come through at that team or a sugar daddy wants to invest in his home town club? They're not going anywhere so why bother?

- Teams occasionally go down due to a lack of fight but more often than not there is an almighty battle at the bottom. I well remember St Mirren and ourselves being rubbish for months then going on great runs as we tried to avoid the drop. St Mirren v Dunfermline was moved to a Monday night for live TV Coverage (so much for everybody else being "meh") and the old Love Street was packed including I think 2,000 away fans. There is interest in relegation battles in every major league in Europe, so we're going to have to disagree on that one.

- I'm really not sure why you think people who only watch the EPL are going to be somehow captivated by a Scottish league, regardless of whether it is more competitive than it is now. There is no evidence to suggest that more people watched when Hearts challenged Celtic and old Rangers. There is no evidence to suggest that EPL fans watch other major European Leagues where there is real quality competion (I'd be surprised if rhe viewing figures for this season's dramatic Eredivise finale reached more than and few tens of thousands even though the EPL title race and relegation battle was done and dusted). If you mean Scottish armchair fans then maybe you'd have a point (although the ones who watch the EPL and not the SPFL at the moment talk about the gap in quality, not the lack of title challenge, and you're never going to won over those idiots) but you'll have alienated so many fans of the clubs not included then the net result could well be negligible anyway.

- I don't see how you could claim that a European competition that doesn't contain clubs from England, France, Spain, Italy, Germany, Portugal, the Netherlands, etc could be anything other than 3rd rate. Indeed if there is to be a closed European League in the future then it may well become a 4th rate league. As much as you and I might like the idea of Rosenborg, Malmo, Copenhagen, Brøndby or whomever for their history and almost exoticness, the vast majority of casual viewers don't care. This becomes compounded if teams qualify for the groups of the major tournaments as we'd then lose out on the biggest drawing teams. 

- As for travel, the South African team is to be sponsored by an airline who are paying for air fares etc in the same way Toronto Wolfpack are in Rugby League. Maybe we can get an airline to sponsor your tournament but who flies between Scotland and Scandinavia who would be prepared to do so? The thing with the Pro 12 is that firstly travel between the 3 home nations and Italy can be done easily by low-cost airlines and secondly the clubs are either fully or partly owned by the respective rugby unions. So the SRU will contribute towards the travel (and indeed pays almost all of it IIRC). Can you see the SFA agreeing to that? Especially since in rugby it's the de facto national tournament (there are no others for the Scots, Irish, Italian and Welsh pro teams to play in; the next tier down is semi-pro) but in Scotland there is already a viable competition.

- On the subject of TV rights, the League Cup groups are on at a time when there is very little competitive football on anyway so the TV deal was an easy enough sell. The transnational league would clash with Champions League and Europa League as well as English, German, Spanish etc domestic league and cup football whichever night the games were played on. You also say that you can televise games on the same night as their Europa League - firstly I don't think you can, and secondly who is going to watch Dunfermline v Malmo when Southampton v Inter or Arsenal/Man Utd v anyone is on? You could even be clashing with Celtic, Rangers or Aberdeen if they make it through to the group stages. So what's your audience? More importantly, which broadcaster is going to pay anything for a tournament where the viewing figures are going to be so low and so variable (other than maybe BBC Alba!)?

- Finally, I'm terms of youth system, every club hopes they unearth a McArthur or McArthy or Tierney or whomever. At our level, we've not had much success but we sold PJ Crossan to Celtic and hope to get a couple more into out first team then sell them on. Also, many of the players who don't make it at Dunfermline go on to play at lower levels. If the SFA had their way, they'd have 20 or so players at each age group who they could bring through into the national team, totally ignoring the late developers and the likes of Andy Robertson who started off at Queens Park.and who could have slipped through the net had Project Brave been there at the time. I wouldn't trust the SFA to run a raffle, let alone a youth policy.

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EdTheDuck    627
17 hours ago, Murgie McDubh said:

It wouldn't catapult but it would be a step in the right direction. They have the massive advantage in resources but they have all subtle advantages as well.

What was the reason behind its failure? Was it bickering, format or interest? The ingredients are there for an exciting tournament and just because of one failed attempt doesn't mean a few adjustments couldn't make it work. 

I’m not convinced it would be a step in the right direction, for a whole bunch of reasons but that’s just my opinion.

The Royal League was played as a 12 team tournament with teams from Sweden, Denmark & Norway playing in 3 groups of 4. It failed because fans didn’t turn up for it and the 4th edition was cancelled because TV abandoned it ahead of the 2008/09 (4th) edition.; it was never revived.

Edited by EdTheDuck

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I’m not convinced it would be a step in the right direction, for a whole bunch of reasons but that’s just my opinion.
The Royal League was played as a 12 team tournament with teams from Sweden, Denmark & Norway playing in 3 groups of 4. It failed because fans didn’t turn up for it and the 4th edition was cancelled because TV abandoned it ahead of the 2008/09 (4th) edition.; it was never revived.


I like the idea of it but think once the novalty wears off youd be in a worse position than when you started

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tamba_trio    85

As a thought (and here me out on this):

What if Premier Division games got played on a Sunday, rather than a Saturday. 

So on a Saturday at 3pm you'd have the lower league stuff.  

At 5:30pm there's a live free-to-air game from the Premiership.  (If Celtic are playing in the Champions League on a Tuesday, it's automatically them to avoid too much disruption)

On a Sunday 4 games kick off at 3pm with BT Sports or Sky or whoever able to show any of them live.  At 5:30pm the final match is shown live on Sky or BT.  

The idea is that, by showing a free to air game on a Saturday night, you'd get some media coverage of the league prior to the main card of games.  There could also be highlights from the Championship after full time.  Then, on a Sunday night, you'd be able to show highlights on the BBC of the days action and not worry about denting the exposure of Match of the Day.  Games wouldn't need re-arranged for the Europa league so we'd all be pretty sure of what was happening each week.

Anyway it was just a thought.  The lack of routine to Scottish football is another thing that drives me nuts.  Some weeks we've a Friday night game.  Sometimes a Saturday lunchtime (and by lunchtime it could be 12:00, 12:15, 12:30, 12:45 or 1pm) and sometimes Sunday lunchtime.  Occasionally it's Sunday at 3pm.  How can you expect fans to build a matchday routine whilst screwing them over so badly?

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EdTheDuck    627
6 hours ago, tamba_trio said:

As a thought (and here me out on this):

What if Premier Division games got played on a Sunday, rather than a Saturday. 

So on a Saturday at 3pm you'd have the lower league stuff.  

At 5:30pm there's a live free-to-air game from the Premiership.  (If Celtic are playing in the Champions League on a Tuesday, it's automatically them to avoid too much disruption)

On a Sunday 4 games kick off at 3pm with BT Sports or Sky or whoever able to show any of them live.  At 5:30pm the final match is shown live on Sky or BT.  

The idea is that, by showing a free to air game on a Saturday night, you'd get some media coverage of the league prior to the main card of games.  There could also be highlights from the Championship after full time.  Then, on a Sunday night, you'd be able to show highlights on the BBC of the days action and not worry about denting the exposure of Match of the Day.  Games wouldn't need re-arranged for the Europa league so we'd all be pretty sure of what was happening each week.

Anyway it was just a thought.  The lack of routine to Scottish football is another thing that drives me nuts.  Some weeks we've a Friday night game.  Sometimes a Saturday lunchtime (and by lunchtime it could be 12:00, 12:15, 12:30, 12:45 or 1pm) and sometimes Sunday lunchtime.  Occasionally it's Sunday at 3pm.  How can you expect fans to build a matchday routine whilst screwing them over so badly?

 

We have to kick off all games at 3pm on a Saturday to win the war against the German Empire!

...

Or maybe that was closing pubs between 2:30pm and 5pm to get the drunken working class back in the munitions factories...

Anyway, switch the kick off time from 3pm on a Saturday and it's just man playing God, interfering with the laws of nature unleashing who knows what, innit. 3 'o' clock on a Saturday is probably in the bible, mate, you see if it ain't...*rolls eyes*

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tamba_trio    85
On 8/15/2017 at 20:08, EdTheDuck said:

 

We have to kick off all games at 3pm on a Saturday to win the war against the German Empire!

...

Or maybe that was closing pubs between 2:30pm and 5pm to get the drunken working class back in the munitions factories...

Anyway, switch the kick off time from 3pm on a Saturday and it's just man playing God, interfering with the laws of nature unleashing who knows what, innit. 3 'o' clock on a Saturday is probably in the bible, mate, you see if it ain't...*rolls eyes*

Hahaha, I love the idea of switching it to a Sunday now just to hear the squeals.  It'd be hillarious.

It just pisses me off that we can't even have a settled weekly schedule.  Some weeks we have a Friday night game.  Sometimes it's Saturday lunchtime.  Sometimes there's games on a Sunday.  And lunchtime kick-offs can be 12:00, 12:15, 12:30 or 12:45 depending on what way the wind is blowing.  Also we occasionally throw a Championship match at 5:15 on a Saturday night, but only sometimes.

BTW, with regard to restructuring the league like American Sports:

WEST - Celtic, Rangers, Partick Th, St Mirren, Morton

EAST - Hearts, Hibs, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Raith R

SOUTH - Motherwell, Hamilton, Kilmarnock, Ayr

NORTH - Aberdeen, St Johnstone, Dundee, Dundee Utd, Inverness CT, Ross C

It'd be fantastic...

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EdTheDuck    627
2 hours ago, tamba_trio said:

Hahaha, I love the idea of switching it to a Sunday now just to hear the squeals.  It'd be hillarious.

It just pisses me off that we can't even have a settled weekly schedule.  Some weeks we have a Friday night game.  Sometimes it's Saturday lunchtime.  Sometimes there's games on a Sunday.  And lunchtime kick-offs can be 12:00, 12:15, 12:30 or 12:45 depending on what way the wind is blowing.  Also we occasionally throw a Championship match at 5:15 on a Saturday night, but only sometimes.

BTW, with regard to restructuring the league like American Sports:

WEST - Celtic, Rangers, Partick Th, St Mirren, Morton

EAST - Hearts, Hibs, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Raith R

SOUTH - Motherwell, Hamilton, Kilmarnock, Ayr

NORTH - Aberdeen, St Johnstone, Dundee, Dundee Utd, Inverness CT, Ross C

It'd be fantastic...

Read this article, it pretty much sums up the reason we should go down the route of playoffs or aperture/clausura or some system that adds meaning to games for The Rest Sums up the way I think. (Incidentally, I believe Chile are going back to a single tournament next year, 2018, driven by the big clubs of course)

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1699/chile/2010/11/02/2195050/chile-debate-the-long-season-is-great-for-the-big-three-but

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