Mr Bairn

League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

478 posts in this topic

On 4/22/2017 at 07:54, AlbionMan said:

Would European qualification be based on league position or play off finals?  With a CL place in the balance, is it likely that the chief contender would take that on an end of season chance. 

It's never going to happen so it's just for fun - but in the Eredivisie they already have a play-offs for the Europa League places. 

Screen Shot 2017-04-23 at 21.13.34.png

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I've come round to the opinion a 12-12-18 league set up is the answer.

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I've come round to the opinion a 12-12-18 league set up is the answer.


Bit meh for me, the 12 team setup is definitely better than the current 10 in the lower leagues but still has the potential of playing teams 4 times each season which is what slot of people want away from.
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12 Premiership

20 Championship

Regional leagues after this, with juniors in the mix. Automatic promotions slots between Premiership and Championship, no automatic promotion elsewhere. Also, regional clubs can decline promotion. If some club prefers to travel less, stay next to their rivals, in their historic little league, no reason to force them to move up. Lower league champion plays worst team from a higher league at the end of the season, but you can win it and choose to stay in your league. 

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Tell you what, reading this thread over the past year or so hasn't half made me appreciate our current league setup, with all its faults.

It's also very apparent that the SPFL could put reconstruction to a fan vote and there'd be no clear favourite. Someone should start a poll on here, actually. Could be interesting.

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On 08/05/2017 at 11:36, Wilkinson1998 said:

 


Bit meh for me, the 12 team setup is definitely better than the current 10 in the lower leagues but still has the potential of playing teams 4 times each season which is what slot of people want away from.

Other than Livi pretty much romping Div 1, the bottom two divisions this year have been terrific.  With a couple of games to go, almost very team was in a fight for something.

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Other than Livi pretty much romping Div 1, the bottom two divisions this year have been terrific.  With a couple of games to go, almost very team was in a fight for something.


The leagues have been very tight yes, but that doesn't make playing each team 4 times the ideal solution if much rather play teams twice in the league I mean in the lower leagues you could play a team 4x in league, Scottish cup, league cup, challenge cup and playoffs
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1 hour ago, Wilkinson1998 said:

 


The leagues have been very tight yes, but that doesn't make playing each team 4 times the ideal solution if much rather play teams twice in the league I mean in the lower leagues you could play a team 4x in league, Scottish cup, league cup, challenge cup and playoffs

Having seen teams play each other twice, three times and four times in the league over the years, let me assure you that it doesn't really matter, provided the games are decent.  QP tend to get pumped in the first round of all the cups, so more league games probably suit us.

There is no ideal solution.  And anything "new" will be a rehash of something that has gone before.

Edited by Hampden Diehard
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Three leagues of 14 hasn't really been given any oxygen of sorts, despite its fairly easy breakdown and reduction in regular-season matches. 

 

In each division, everyone play home and away, up til week 26 (Opening Stage) which should be in late February.......with the top league having a January break (no league fixtures after the Ne'er Day calendar or before the last weekend in the month). The other two divisions play right through international weekends and only on Saturdays. In each division, a top half finish gives you seven home fixtures in the Closing stage, each against the seven sides automatically beneath you. Likewise, you play away to the other six....to clarify, the team top at week 26, will play teams 2-8 at home, and 9-14 away. This ensures ambiguity over fixture selection post-split is obselete, as we currently suffer just now. It also gives teams the clear opportunity to play competitively for more home games. 

 

Promotion and relegagation issues.....the bottom two in Prem, automatically relegated. Replaced by the D1 winner, and the playoffs winner between 2-5th place. All playoffs one match at neutral venues, on weekends also. Between D1 and D2, three down, two straight up and again, playoffs between 3rd to 6th place at neutral venues again on weekends to decide the third. 

 

Playoff twist.....the matches between the sides, throughout the season, provide a tiebreak scoreline in each playoff match. Example.....Dunfermline face Morton in D1 playoff, at Firhill. Three league fixtures went 1-1, 3-2 Pars and 4-1 Ton. Morton would theoretically start the match 7-5 ahead, therefore Dunfermline would have to win the match, or they'd be out. A draw would suffice for Ton, which playing for would only encourage Dunfermline..... and suddenly we have a spectacle!! 

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On 17/05/2017 at 00:02, Elementary Penguin said:

Three leagues of 14 hasn't really been given any oxygen of sorts, despite its fairly easy breakdown and reduction in regular-season matches. 

 

It has on here; with similar to your suggestion and 7-7 and 6-8 splits

 

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Got a suspicion that the current set up is the best fit of a bad bunch. Like most people, I'd love a bigger league with less games against the same teams but there's always a fundamental, cant-get-past-it problem with all the suggestions I've seen... Either not enough league games (16 team league) or not enough clubs (18) or kerazee divide the league into 4 groups after 15 games type suggestions (a lot of the 14 team league proposals). I think most people accept that there's no perfect answer to the league set up and, given that a 10 team league (bores the arse off everyone) and an 18 team league (not feasible) are off the table, there's always going to be a slight mismatch and compromise between matches played during a season by each club to get the right number of fixtures.

The downside of the current set up is that we've still got the yawnsome prospect of playing a lot of teams 4 times a season (which unfortunately is back to being a prerequisite for the OF - opportunity missed there, imo) and there's a slight fixture imbalance. I reckon most on here would grudgingly admit the split has been a success though - especially now with the play off place. The system has generated a lot of meaningful, exciting games towards the end of the season and there's obviously a danger with league reconstruction of bollixing that right up.

The thing I don't like about most of the 14 team league suggestions is that most of them have a split after 26 games. One of the reasons why the current split works is that it comes really late in the season. Splitting after 26 is too early, I think - it'd be more balanced with everyone playing each other home and away but it would be tedious and interminable post split, I reckon. Much better to keep the slightly unbalanced, more exciting 12 team Premiership than that, imo. The other problem with the 14 is that a 7/7 split means one team has got to sit it out for each round of fixtures and an 8/6 split means there's a fixture number imbalance between top and bottom

So aye.

10 team Premiership .....with everyone playing each other home and away twice. 36 games. .....Been there, done that. Unanimous NAH.

18 team Premiership.....everyone playing home and away once. 34 games.......Would be nice but I think 99% accept there are not enough clubs to sustain it.

 

Compromise options then..

12 team Premiership............current set up. Not perfect etc but pretty good. Been shown to work quite well.

14 team Premiership.............not as good as the 12 team option for the reasons explained above. Think it'd be a mistake to ditch the 12 for a 14 team league.

16 team Premiership............unfortunately doesnt generate enough fixtures at only 30 for cash strapped clubs.

 

.....If there was league reconstruction, a version of a 16 team league is the one I'd be tempted to go for and it could work with a bit of jiggery pokery. It'd be great to have a bigger league but it'd take a fair bit of compromise with regard to fixture balance etc to get the required amount of games. Given the amount of conspiracy theories already, I can see why it'd be a step too far for some but I really wouldnt mind an 8/8 split after 30 games and then just 1 round of fixtures against the other 7 teams in your half of the split. There would obviously be more of a fixture imbalance with a good few teams playing each other 3 times a season but I think it'd be worth it for a bigger league. It would just have to be evened out as much as possible between seasons and also if you got Celtic at home twice, you would get Rangers away twice in the same season (same deal with Hearts and Hibs etc).

To balance the league games up you could have one extra round of fixtures to take it up from 37 to 38 games (19 home and 19 away for everyone) which would take place as the first games post split, with 1st playing 2nd, 3rd playing 4th and so on. That would be an extra round of '6 pointers' all the way down the league, balance things up and, let's face it, 9 times out of 10 it would give Rangers and Celtic their 4 OF games a season which apparently they need. Even if Aberdeen or Hearts did manage to split them on occasion, then you'd think that'd be a marketable story from a telly perspective anyway. 

A 16 team Premiership would be borderline pushing it with the amount of clubs in Scotland so I would keep it as a 10 team Championship below it to try an conserve the 2nd tier at a certain standard and keep it at one club promoted/relegated between the Championship and Premiership (with another 16 team 3rd division below that = 42 clubs altogether).  I would have 2nd top and 2nd bottom going into a two leg play off tie but also 3rd top and 3rd bottom going into a separate 2 leg play off tie for the two places in the Premiership. Having the 3 bottom Premiership places with the jeopardy of relegation would be the same as the EPL but with 14th and 15th going into play offs, it would help to solve the issue of a limited number of clubs for a bigger league and make it so it wasn't too easy to get into the top league.

 

If you can't be ersed reading all that (dont blame yer)...then it's basically keep it the same at 12 or possibly go to a 16 team league if you dont mind more fixture conspiracy theories. 

Edited by Humphrey Plugg
edit* the 12-12-18 idea wouldnt be the worst either.
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Just gonna type out the 16-10-16 to see what it looks like. I'm bored, like.

PREMIERSHIP                                                                            CHAMPIONSHIP                                                      LEAGUE 1

1.  Celtic                                                                                       1.  St Mirren                                                            1.  Brechin

2.  Rangers                                                                                  ----------------------------------                                      --------------------                       

3.  Aberdeen                                                                                2.  Dunfermline                                                        2.  Alloa

4.  St Johnstone                                                                           3.  Livingston                                                           3. Stirling

5.  Hearts                                                                                     ----------------------------------                                      4. Stranraer

6.  Hibernian                                                                                4. Queen Of The South                                            ---------------------

7.  Dundee United                                                                       5.  Raith Rovers                                                        5. Albion Rovers

8.  Partick Thistle                                                                        6.  Airdrie                                                                   6. Peterhead

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -                                                         7.  Dumbarton                                                            7. Stenhousemuir

9.   Ross County                                                                        8.  Ayr United                                                              8. Arbroath

10. Motherwell                                                                           ----------------------------------                                        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

11.  Dundee                                                                               9.  Clyde                                                                      9. Forfar

12. Falkirk                                                                                 -----------------------------------                                       10. Annan Athletic

13. Kilmarnock                                                                         10. East Fife                                                                11. Montrose

--------------------------------                                                                                                                                            12. Queen's Park

14. Morton                                                                                                                                                                   13. Edinburgh City

15. Hamilton Acc.                                                                                                                                                        14. Berwick

-------------------------------                                                                                                                                             ---------------------------------------

16. Inverness CT                                                                                                                                                        15. Elgin

                                                                                                                                                                                   16. Cowdenbeath

 

Premiership - everyone plays home and away taking it to 30 games before splitting into 8/8

....then play an extra round of fixtures with 1st playing 2nd, 3rd playing 4th etc all the way down. An extra set of '6 pointers' for everyone and, 9 times out of 10, it would give the OF their extra game which they insist upon.

...then just play the other teams in your half once...7 more games, taking it to 38 games for the season. Obviously everyone is going to end up playing 6 other teams 3 times a season so there's a fixture imbalance but that would just have to be balanced out as much as possible overall. Worth it for a bigger league, imo.

 - 3rd bottom and 3rd top of Championship go into a 2 leg play off and 2nd bottom and 2nd top go into a separate two leg play off for the two spaces in the Premiership

-10 team Championship and another 16 team league below that with play off places for both Highland and Lowland Leagues at the bottom

 

I think that'd be great. Have that with summer football blah and you'd be onto a winner, imo.  Pretty much every club in that Championship is of a big enough stature to play in a 16 team Premiership....it's not like 15-20 years ago when a lot of the stadia wasnt up to scratch. I reckon we DO have enough clubs for it - it's just about finding the right set up to get enough games and make it work.....then persuading the OF (and a couple of others). I'm oversimplifying things, aren't I??

 

 

Edited by Humphrey Plugg
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I'd have a 14 or 15  league where we play each other 3 times.

no split nonsense though.

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Anything over 40 games max is apparently a deal breaker though. I remember reading, er somewhere, that the clubs don't want to go over that mark again. The jessies.

 

*edit - although that would be alright for yer 14 team league, at 39 games. Obv. 

**relearns basic maths

Edited by Humphrey Plugg
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In proposing changes, I'm left wondering what the objectives are.  If it's to produce a more exciting league season, then I'd point to this season; it's been great - take away Celtic, and there has been great competition in almost every top and bottom battle area.  The media couldn't care less, unfortunately, so there is little being done by them to talk it up.

Other than the poor standard of our footballers across the board, we really only have one problem in Scotland with the league system, and that's Celtic being so far ahead of anyone.  They hoover up all the decent talent and have them sitting on the bench; a double whammy.  Yes, Rangers might rise again (what a horrible thought), but that'd only take us back to a previous situation when two teams, rather than just the one, swept everything before them.

Football is now all about concentrating wealth on a handful of clubs.  We also have that in Scotland.  Until we have a return to the 1980s, where income levels were largely flat amongst the teams, we're stuck with a top league that has one streets ahead of the rest, with the others a very poor second, producing teams that can't even compete with the poorest of the poor in Europe.  But we've gone way past the point of having a level playing field, so why hanker after it.

Tinkering about with the league structure (which, as I've said, seems to work and can be very exciting) won't help to solve the real problem in Scotland.  Other countries have a similar situation, being perpetuated by TV money and the Champions League payouts.  Basically, within the individual league systems across Europe, football as a competitive entity is utterly fecked.  The same teams are winning their respective league year after year.  Which is why the Leicester triumph last year should be even more lauded.

Edited by Hampden Diehard
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55 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

In proposing changes, I'm left wondering what the objectives are.  If it's to produce a more exciting league season, then I'd point to this season; it's been great - take away Celtic, and there has been great competition in almost every top and bottom battle area.  The media couldn't care less, unfortunately, so there is little being done by them to talk it up.

Other than the poor standard of our footballers across the board, we really only have one problem in Scotland with the league system, and that's Celtic being so far ahead of anyone.  They hoover up all the decent talent and have them sitting on the bench; a double whammy.  Yes, Rangers might rise again (what a horrible thought), but that'd only take up back to a previous situation when two teams, rather than just the one, swept everything before them.

Football is now all about concentrating wealth on a handful of clubs.  We also have that in Scotland.  Until we have a return to the 1980s, where income levels were largely flat amongst the teams, we're stuck with a top league that has one side streets ahead of the rest, with the others a very poor second, producing teams that can't even compete with the poorest of the poor in Europe.  But we've gone way past the point of having a level playing field, so why hanker after it.

Tinkering about with the league structure (which, as I've said, seems to work and can be very exciting) won't help to solve the real problem in Scotland.  Other countries have a similar situation, being perpetuated by TV money and the Champions League payouts.  Basically, within the individual league systems across Europe, football as a competitive entity is utterly fecked.  The same teams are winning their respective league year after year.  Which is why the Leicester triumph last year should be even more lauded.

I think The Rangers will be soon taking permanent placing as runners up for the foreseeable future. They don't have to spend that much ( relative to their income) to attract a few aging mercenaries -  to be just good enough to beat the rest also.

So we will have 1st & 2nd tied up IMO  .  Unfortunately ..  The sooner these 2 bugger off  elsewhere the better for Scottish football.

Off course the real problem is the sheep in this country ( & they are not the Dons fans ) They are the abnormal of individuals to 'follow' these 2 rather than support their local clubs. Which says a lot about about Scottish society.  (  unfortunately again )

 

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

In proposing changes, I'm left wondering what the objectives are.  If it's to produce a more exciting league season, then I'd point to this season; it's been great - take away Celtic, and there has been great competition in almost every top and bottom battle area.  The media couldn't care less, unfortunately, so there is little being done by them to talk it up.

Other than the poor standard of our footballers across the board, we really only have one problem in Scotland with the league system, and that's Celtic being so far ahead of anyone.  They hoover up all the decent talent and have them sitting on the bench; a double whammy.  Yes, Rangers might rise again (what a horrible thought), but that'd only take up back to a previous situation when two teams, rather than just the one, swept everything before them.

Football is now all about concentrating wealth on a handful of clubs.  We also have that in Scotland.  Until we have a return to the 1980s, where income levels were largely flat amongst the teams, we're stuck with a top league that has one side streets ahead of the rest, with the others a very poor second, producing teams that can't even compete with the poorest of the poor in Europe.  But we've gone way past the point of having a level playing field, so why hanker after it.

Tinkering about with the league structure (which, as I've said, seems to work and can be very exciting) won't help to solve the real problem in Scotland.  Other countries have a similar situation, being perpetuated by TV money and the Champions League payouts.  Basically, within the individual league systems across Europe, football as a competitive entity is utterly fecked.  The same teams are winning their respective league year after year.  Which is why the Leicester triumph last year should be even more lauded.

You could argue, given the main problems you point out, that any league reconstruction would just be window dressing in comparison. And you'd probably be right. The question, I think, though would be if jigging the leagues about a bit could make the, er, product *better*....rather than dismissing some kind of reconstruction because it obviously isn't the answer to all of the deep rooted problems Scottish football faces. The kind of 'ach, what's the point?' attitude is quite pervasive - amongst fans and in boardrooms - which acts to maintain the stodgy status quo and stops things at least beginning to move in the right direction, imo.

Like most, I find playing clubs 4 (sometimes more) times a season year in-year out pretty tedious and repetitive and it'll continue to be a main bugbear for a lot of supporters until something changes - if it ever does. In the context of Scottish football, I think over familiarity has absolutely bred contempt, stagnancy and a large degree of boredom between fans, players and everyone else involved. I can obviously only speak for myself, like, but it has been the deciding factor on not attending (away games especially) on numerous occasions - never mind, there'll be another identical game on in a couple of weeks etc - and I think a slightly bigger league (if done right obv) would help to improve attendances and rivalries for this reason.

I'd definitely agree though that the current set up is far from the worst we've had and it has been proven to generate meaningful, exciting games towards the end of the season. Aye, there's a danger of ballsing that up with league tinkering but I personally cant get away from really wanting rid of the 4+ games a season with Hamilton (sorry Hamilton) yawnfest. Unfortunately the 1980's-esque splitting of funds isn't coming back for the reasons you point out, but Scottish football shouldn't continue to cut its nose off to spite its face in other areas because of that.

 

 

Edited by Humphrey Plugg
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