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League reconstruction: Let's hear your view


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On 02/04/2017 at 16:36, tamba_trio said:

Why not have a salary cap?  I mean, if we're wanting more competition isn't that the simplest way?  

Split TV money, prize money and gate money equally and have a salary cap.  It's not rocket science to think that if teams are playing in a league together then it'd be best if they have similar resources. 

Maybe if teams outside Glasgow had a chance at winning the league before we all die, it might increase their crowds.  And maybe TV would pay more to show a league that wasn't a foregone conclusion every year. 

I agree with all of what you suggest, but don't know that the upshot is that the League would be more attractive to TV if several clubs could challenge for the title.

It would be more attractive to me and you and lots of P&B regulars.  However, the greatest TV interest would be generated by the return of the hideous, tedious duopoly we had for over fifteen years before 2012.

For me, a slightly reduced TV deal would be a price well worth paying for a league that several sides could conceivably win, but it's the fact that the duopoly is relatively TV friendly that has led our game's leaders to blindly and disgracefully pursue its retention, then recovery.

Edited by Monkey Tennis
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On 4/13/2017 at 22:19, Monkey Tennis said:

I agree with all of what you suggest, but don't know that the upshot is that the League would be more attractive to TV if several clubs could challenge for the title.

It would be more attractive to me and you and lots of P&B regulars.  However, the greatest TV interest would be generated by the return of the hideous, tedious duopoly we had for over fifteen years before 2012.

For me, a slightly reduced TV deal would be a price well worth paying for a league that several sides could conceivably win, but it's the fact that the duopoly is relatively TV friendly that has led our game's leaders to blindly and disgracefully pursue its retention, then recovery.

In terms of TV interest - having a competitive league has to be more interesting that "let's all watch Celtic beat some outfit with a tenth of their budget for the 25th time this season."  Sport is crap when it's predictable. 

At the moment the Scottish Premiership is pretty much the least competitive sporting league on the planet.  For all we can compare our league to other countries, where else can boast the same city winning the league for 30+ years??  How many other countries can be certain that they will never see a parade for a championship winning team? 

We have Celtic and Rangers.  Whether they are contending for the title or playing for third, those fixtures will always be sell out, hate filled monstrosities that both they and TV love so much.  

Here's a quote from the Australian League webpage:

"The Salary Cap facilitates competitive balance and parity between Clubs by ensuring that the playing talent is distributed amongst the Hyundai A-League Clubs. In doing so, this increases the attraction of the competition to fans, sponsors and broadcast partners. The Salary Cap also safeguards the economic viability of the Hyundai A-League by ensuring that Clubs are not put in a position where they are forced to spend beyond their financial capabilities in order to stay competitive on the field."

Doesn't this address the main problems we have with our league??  It's also worth noting that the A-League is - at best - the 3rd sport in Australia and yet still commands a vastly superior TV deal despite a 27 game season.  And it's not like it even needs to be a hard cap - just SOMETHING to stop us being the most unequal league in the entire world would be a welcome start.

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5 hours ago, tamba_trio said:

In terms of TV interest - having a competitive league has to be more interesting that "let's all watch Celtic beat some outfit with a tenth of their budget for the 25th time this season."  Sport is crap when it's predictable. 

At the moment the Scottish Premiership is pretty much the least competitive sporting league on the planet.  For all we can compare our league to other countries, where else can boast the same city winning the league for 30+ years??  How many other countries can be certain that they will never see a parade for a championship winning team? 

We have Celtic and Rangers.  Whether they are contending for the title or playing for third, those fixtures will always be sell out, hate filled monstrosities that both they and TV love so much.  

Here's a quote from the Australian League webpage:

"The Salary Cap facilitates competitive balance and parity between Clubs by ensuring that the playing talent is distributed amongst the Hyundai A-League Clubs. In doing so, this increases the attraction of the competition to fans, sponsors and broadcast partners. The Salary Cap also safeguards the economic viability of the Hyundai A-League by ensuring that Clubs are not put in a position where they are forced to spend beyond their financial capabilities in order to stay competitive on the field."

Doesn't this address the main problems we have with our league??  It's also worth noting that the A-League is - at best - the 3rd sport in Australia and yet still commands a vastly superior TV deal despite a 27 game season.  And it's not like it even needs to be a hard cap - just SOMETHING to stop us being the most unequal league in the entire world would be a welcome start.

You're totally preaching to the converted with your argument about a more level playing field being better.

I think though that in terms of TV appeal, a battle between an OF miles clear of the rest would generate the biggest viewing figures.

Believe me, this reality depresses the Hell out of me, but that doesn't let me pretend that it's not just that - the reality.

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So I know this will never happen, but it's a suggestion to keep the league alive longer, it works elsewhere, and it increases the chances of someone 'else' winning it.

End of season play-offs for the league, like they have in the US and in rugby union. 

1st plays 4th at home and 2nd plays 3rd, followed by a final at the home of the higher-placed team. So league position gains home advantage. It also means finishing 2nd is worth something as it secures a home semi-final.

This year that would mean Celtic v St Johnstone and Aberdeen v Rangers.

Of course, apart from the obvious reasons why it would never happen, I don't think the polis would appreciate league deciders between the ugly sisters. 

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So I know this will never happen, but it's a suggestion to keep the league alive longer, it works elsewhere, and it increases the chances of someone 'else' winning it.
End of season play-offs for the league, like they have in the US and in rugby union. 
1st plays 4th at home and 2nd plays 3rd, followed by a final at the home of the higher-placed team. So league position gains home advantage. It also means finishing 2nd is worth something as it secures a home semi-final.
This year that would mean Celtic v St Johnstone and Aberdeen v Rangers.
Of course, apart from the obvious reasons why it would never happen, I don't think the polis would appreciate league deciders between the ugly sisters. 

It's also an utterly shite idea
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19 minutes ago, parsforlife said:


It's also an utterly shite idea

Thanks for that well-considered response. I'll give it the thought it merits.

Play-offs work in rugby union in the Pro12 and the English and French leagues. They work in MLS. It's anathema to football in Europe, but so too are lots of things that you find in successful leagues around the world; appertura and clausura, for instance. Some leagues do double points after a split. 

I'd be totally in favour of a salary cap as others have mentioned; again, something that won't happen.

Another financial measure could be splitting gate money for league games, as we do now for cup ties. 

At the top level Scottish football is unbearable for everyone other than the OF and it's worth thinking about changes that would keep other teams involved as late as possible. In other eras this Aberdeen side would've won a championship or two. The OF have won the last 32 titles in a row. They won 23 of the preceding 32 (including 9-in-a-row for Celtic). The other nine were shared among Hearts(2), Aberdeen (4), Dundee Utd, Dundee and Killie. It would be great if we could go back to the title leaving Glasgow every three or four years.

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Think it works better in America because they have different divisions. We could do -

Western Division/EasternDivision

Rangers Hearts
Celtic Hibs
Motherwell Aberdeen
St Mirren Dundee utd
Morton Dundee
Airdrie St Johnstone
Hamilton Dunfermline
Kilmarnock Raith Rovers
Qos Inverness
Ayr utd Ross County
Hamilton Falkirk
Dumbarton Livingston

Teams in same league play each other twice, rival league once. Total 34 games. Playoffs top 6 from each league for title.

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Thanks for that well-considered response. I'll give it the thought it merits.
Play-offs work in rugby union in the Pro12 and the English and French leagues. They work in MLS. It's anathema to football in Europe, but so too are lots of things that you find in successful leagues around the world; appertura and clausura, for instance. Some leagues do double points after a split. 
I'd be totally in favour of a salary cap as others have mentioned; again, something that won't happen.
Another financial measure could be splitting gate money for league games, as we do now for cup ties. 
At the top level Scottish football is unbearable for everyone other than the OF and it's worth thinking about changes that would keep other teams involved as late as possible. In other eras this Aberdeen side would've won a championship or two. The OF have won the last 32 titles in a row. They won 23 of the preceding 32 (including 9-in-a-row for Celtic). The other nine were shared among Hearts(2), Aberdeen (4), Dundee Utd, Dundee and Killie. It would be great if we could go back to the title leaving Glasgow every three or four years.


I'm not 100% adverse to an appertura and Clausura system, providing that it synced with Uefa. But if you look at countries like Argentina they have systems ridiculously stacked towards big teams, far worse than what goes on here.

Remember OF were utterly dominant during eras with salary caps and split gates.

Football is not 'unbearable' at the top level, that is a laughable claim.
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A 'final four' single elimination tournament after a 9 month 38 game slog has a few problems, not the least of which, of course, is the perception that it is grossly unfair.

Fact is it doesn't actually add very much to the previous 38 game 9 month slog. Teams will want to finish as high as possible as a matter of course. At the moment the race for the top 6 doesn't exactly fire up the fans for games in October or January or March; if Partick had played Kilmarnock in round 33 with the winner going into the top 6 and the loser consigned to the bottom 6 you'd have had a bigger than usual crowd. The same thing would apply going for a top 4 finish - there wouldn't be any more interest (or fans turning up) at McDiarmid in January if the Saints were chasing 4th than there is at the moment. Come the head-to-head with Hearts in April/May, with the winner qualifying and loser's season ending, then you'd get a BIG crowd.

What attracts fans is a winning team and/or high stakes games. A carrot dangled way in the distance wont, The playoffs in Rugby may be a success but I don't think they add many, if any, additional fans in the regular season until you get to those few, vital In-or-Out games at the sharp end of the season.

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So I know this will never happen, but it's a suggestion to keep the league alive longer, it works elsewhere, and it increases the chances of someone 'else' winning it.
End of season play-offs for the league, like they have in the US and in rugby union. 
1st plays 4th at home and 2nd plays 3rd, followed by a final at the home of the higher-placed team. So league position gains home advantage. It also means finishing 2nd is worth something as it secures a home semi-final.
This year that would mean Celtic v St Johnstone and Aberdeen v Rangers.
Of course, apart from the obvious reasons why it would never happen, I don't think the polis would appreciate league deciders between the ugly sisters. 

I am not a fan of the playoffs as a decider of league champions. My argument is why should a team who finish 4th be potential league champions. When the league leaders have deserved to be top of the pile. To me it doesn't make sense

Playoffs as a separate competition however I would be more on board with. Instead of a top 6 split I would maybe go for top 8 enter playoffs at the end of the season.

1st plays 8th
2nd plays 7th
3rd plays 6th
4th plays 5th

1st to 4th get the home advantage. Then the semi and the final. This for me would be separate from the league though. It would add potential sponsorship and trophy without adding yet more games. If you don't make the playoffs ah well tough shit I suppose.

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20 minutes ago, Doonhamer doon south said:


I am not a fan of the playoffs as a decider of league champions. My argument is why should a team who finish 4th be potential league champions. When the league leaders have deserved to be top of the pile. To me it doesn't make sense.
 

I suppose the answer would be that they'd have to win two matches away from home against teams that had finished the league higher than them, so they'd have come through a harder path. In pure sporting integrity terms it's obviously not ideal, but then neither is a league in which two teams have more spending power than the rest of the league combined.

In the English leagues you can get promoted having finished 7th - or you can get promoted to the richest league in the world, guaranteeing a £100 million bonus, having finished 6th. If we decided World Cups with a league, Hungary and the Netherland would probably have won a couple each as they were the dominant teams in the competitions but couldn't see it through in the final. A league system is seen as the purest way of finding out who's best, but really it finds out who's most consistent. This season Aberdeen are probably going to finish above Rangers, but head-to-head Rangers are a better team. Would title play-offs devalue the championship? Yes, a little. But they'd make the league more competitive than it's been in a generation. Right now it's a pointless competition. 

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I suppose the answer would be that they'd have to win two matches away from home against teams that had finished the league higher than them, so they'd have come through a harder path. In pure sporting integrity terms it's obviously not ideal, but then neither is a league in which two teams have more spending power than the rest of the league combined.
In the English leagues you can get promoted having finished 7th - or you can get promoted to the richest league in the world, guaranteeing a £100 million bonus, having finished 6th. If we decided World Cups with a league, Hungary and the Netherland would probably have won a couple each as they were the dominant teams in the competitions but couldn't see it through in the final. A league system is seen as the purest way of finding out who's best, but really it finds out who's most consistent. This season Aberdeen are probably going to finish above Rangers, but head-to-head Rangers are a better team. Would title play-offs devalue the championship? Yes, a little. But they'd make the league more competitive than it's been in a generation. Right now it's a pointless competition. 

The playoffs in the English and Scottish lower leagues do not decide the league winners though they are an aid to promotion and generate interest in the league for other teams unlikely to make league winners. For the top leagues however I don't see why that should be a fair way to decide league winners. As you say the league determines generally the best team who have been consistent throughout the season. As much as I dislike the stranglehold the old firm have on Scottish football Celtic this season are deserving of their league win.

The spending power of the old firm well what can you do about that. Every top league in Europe will have teams that can far out spend their league competitor's. It's not fair the millions that clubs like man utd, Chelsea, bayern Munich, psg, real Madrid and all the rest can spend but that's just football and it's not going to change any time soon unfortunately.
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On 15/04/2017 at 23:36, parsforlife said:

 


I'm not 100% adverse to an appertura and Clausura system, providing that it synced with Uefa. But if you look at countries like Argentina they have systems ridiculously stacked towards big teams, far worse than what goes on here.

Remember OF were utterly dominant during eras with salary caps and split gates.

Football is not 'unbearable' at the top level, that is a laughable claim.

The split season league would be a great way to invigorate our game. Even at its simplest it gives you twice as many league deciders; if you freak it up a bit it can create more European, promotion & relegation deciders and playoffs.

It would be a winner!

Probably

 

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On 15 April 2017 at 22:26, GordonS said:

So I know this will never happen, but it's a suggestion to keep the league alive longer, it works elsewhere, and it increases the chances of someone 'else' winning it.

End of season play-offs for the league, like they have in the US and in rugby union. 

1st plays 4th at home and 2nd plays 3rd, followed by a final at the home of the higher-placed team. So league position gains home advantage. It also means finishing 2nd is worth something as it secures a home semi-final.

This year that would mean Celtic v St Johnstone and Aberdeen v Rangers.

Of course, apart from the obvious reasons why it would never happen, I don't think the polis would appreciate league deciders between the ugly sisters. 

Would European qualification be based on league position or play off finals?  With a CL place in the balance, is it likely that the chief contender would take that on an end of season chance. 

Having played each other four times supporter indifference would be a likely response to another two games against the same team, always excepting a Nay Classico between the bigot brothers. Scottish football doesn't need another rerun of that.

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On 4/22/2017 at 07:54, AlbionMan said:

Would European qualification be based on league position or play off finals?  With a CL place in the balance, is it likely that the chief contender would take that on an end of season chance. 

It's never going to happen so it's just for fun - but in the Eredivisie they already have a play-offs for the Europa League places. 

Screen Shot 2017-04-23 at 21.13.34.png

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  • 2 weeks later...
I've come round to the opinion a 12-12-18 league set up is the answer.


Bit meh for me, the 12 team setup is definitely better than the current 10 in the lower leagues but still has the potential of playing teams 4 times each season which is what slot of people want away from.
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12 Premiership

20 Championship

Regional leagues after this, with juniors in the mix. Automatic promotions slots between Premiership and Championship, no automatic promotion elsewhere. Also, regional clubs can decline promotion. If some club prefers to travel less, stay next to their rivals, in their historic little league, no reason to force them to move up. Lower league champion plays worst team from a higher league at the end of the season, but you can win it and choose to stay in your league. 

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Tell you what, reading this thread over the past year or so hasn't half made me appreciate our current league setup, with all its faults.

It's also very apparent that the SPFL could put reconstruction to a fan vote and there'd be no clear favourite. Someone should start a poll on here, actually. Could be interesting.

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On 08/05/2017 at 11:36, Wilkinson1998 said:

 


Bit meh for me, the 12 team setup is definitely better than the current 10 in the lower leagues but still has the potential of playing teams 4 times each season which is what slot of people want away from.

Other than Livi pretty much romping Div 1, the bottom two divisions this year have been terrific.  With a couple of games to go, almost very team was in a fight for something.

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