League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[Wilky1878]

Resetting everyone to 0pts makes massive swathes of the opening 22 games literally meaningless...

As you as you knew you were Top 8 or Bottom 4, or Top 4 or Bottom 8, you don't mind whether you win 9-0 or lose 9-0 each week. Clubs like Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts, Rangers and so on / smaller Championship clubs would know from the off there was no danger of them finishing Bottom 4 / Top 4 and would hardly bother until February. Your example of a club only needing to hit good form for 2-3 months to win the league is exactly why it wouldn't be adopted, anyway.


Also there is little evidence big leagues playing twice result in "less stale fixtures" and "higher attendances" - meaningless mid-table games can be very stale and deliver poor crowds.

I don't think resetting points to 0 would be the ideal solution for Scottish football, but I also don't think the middle 8 would work without resetting points, I was just looking at it and seen the positive of less OF dominance within that system. Aren't there a few leagues around the world that have their normal season then a "play-offs" to decide the league winner?

"Less stale fixtures" was maybe the wrong term and I completely worded that part wrong I think. I was more aiming towards the playing teams 4 times a season (or more including cups). I go to most games usually (missed a few this season tbf) but I'd imagine if I had to pick and choose my games I'd be more likely to attend if it was a case of only playing the team away once and having a more variety of teams.
As it stands just now if I were to look at say Livi away at the start of the season I could decide just to sack it as we would be playing them away later in the season anyway whereas if we play them away only once a season I would be more inclined to bite the bullet and go.

[Wilky1878]

I think the current 12 team system works pretty well. The only other system would be to reduce the Premiership to 10 teams and play x4 like the rest of the SPFL divisions, but I can't see that happening. I think the while "fans are bored with playing the same clubs" is a red herring. I don't really care who we're playing, just want the 3 points (as rare as that is...) Small divisions keep things tighter whereas 18 or 20 tab divisions become stale mid-season once top and bottom are pretty much decided.

I wouldn't say the 12 team system is the worst system but I think looking below it their needs to be a change from the three 10 team leagues at least. I'm not saying I don't like the 10 team league (further up the thread I spoke about a 16-16-10 setup) I just don't think the three 10s in a row are working very well atm.

[lubo_blaha]

The solution to avoiding "resetting" points is to half the points totals from the teams from the lower division. At this stage (albeit after 24 games played) the middle eight woulds be:

Hibs 24.5 (rounding up/down needed)
Well 24
Partick 23
United 21.5
Hamilton 21
Falkirk 20
Morton 20
ICT 18

There are obvious flaws in this though. 22 games is awfully early to be splitting the league imo and the bottom 8 in the championship would be boring as f*ck if you just missed out on the play offs and we're safe from relegation. Teams in 7th/8th in the top 8 wouldn't have much to play for unless you had some kind of Europa playoff, but that would mean you'd need to play the Scottish Cup final beforehand to know how many spots were up for grabs.

I prefer the current top tier system tbh. 5 games is probably the right amount for post-split and just about every team has something to play for for most of the season. The Premiership playoffs could probably use a revamp though.

[lionel hutz]

I would have a 12-12-12-12 set-up with every league having 38 games, and the new 6 teams in the league will be the top 3 from the HL and the LL

[Hedgecutter]

I think the while "fans are bored with playing the same clubs" is a red herring.

 

I speak for myself here, but there have been a number of times where I've been weighing up 'going to the fitba' vs 'other sh*t that actually needs done' and the latter has won, often with "ach, I was there earlier this season / will get another trip there later" being a deciding factor. Having just one chance to visit particular grounds genuinely makes a difference for me now.

 

[EdTheDuck]

With the arrival of Pedro at Ibrox now is the time to implement the Liga MX system.

18 team league -

Apertura (winter league) play each other once, top 8 play off for the Winter championship

Clausura (spring league) start from scratch, play reverse fixtures, top 8 play off for Spring Championship

UCL spot and relegation places determined by aggregate table,  EL places go to Winer & Spring playoff winner unless it's Celtic whoever wins the UCL place in which case it goes to 2nd (and probably 3rd in aggregate table)

It would be a fucking hoot, we'd probably have to build new massive stadium to cope with the huuuuuge crowds and fight off SKY/BT/ESPN with a stick

[EdTheDuck]

Re the 12-12/8/-8-8

I have no idea why this has resurfaced but...

If this comes to pass and the idea is to increase interest (for BT allegedly) there's a few ways to achieve that.

The top 8 - halve the points after the split; even this season it would ramp up the interest, maybe not in the title but EL places. At 22 games Aberdeen & Rangers had 12 & 11 point leads over Hearts & St Johnstone - that would suddenly drop to 6 & 5

The middle 8 - carry forward only the points gained against the teams that have joined you in the Middle 8 - this season that would have meant Dundee 11pts, United 11pts, Hibs 9pts, ICT 8pts, MWell 8pts, Falkirk 6pts, Accies 4pts, Morton 4pts

Bottom 8 - halve the points & tighten up the relegation & playoff spot(s) but also whoever finishes top of the pile should get a playoff against the 4th placed team from the middle 8 for a place in the following season's Top 12

Alternatively maybe the whole thing is an early April Fools. Let's hope so, eh kids

[HibeeJibee]

OF would oppose 'Top 8' idea.

'Middle 8' idea is sensible; cuts meaningless games pre-split v resetting to 0.

'Bottom 8' idea is unfair indeed may be easier to win 'Bottom 8' v finish top 4 in 'Middle 8'?

[ftk]

BT and SPFL want to launch this tv deal with a new league format similar to what they did with the league cup this season. Changes are definitely on the cards.

 

 

[EdTheDuck]

9 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

OF would oppose 'Top 8' idea.

'Middle 8' idea is sensible; cuts meaningless games pre-split v resetting to 0.

'Bottom 8' idea is unfair indeed may be easier to win 'Bottom 8' v finish top 4 in 'Middle 8'?

I don't think it would just be the OF who would oppose the half points, I imagine Stewarty Milne would be choking at such a proposal; his ambitions lie squarely in being Best of the Rest IMO

I think you're right though, the possibility of the title being won by either half as a result of points being halved would stick in the craw (i.e if Celtic were ahead by 10pts ahead of the split, therefore 5 post split and Rangers won title by 1pt meaning in the current set up Celtic would still win title by 4pts - can you imagine the shenanigans?)

First in the bottom 8 getting a playoff versus 4th in the middle 8 gives the top end of that division some meaning rather than a 3-month hiatus...and it's plausible that would be 4th & 5th from the Championship/second division 12. It might be easier to win bottom 8 but then again missing out on the middle 8 and dropping into the bottom 8 might have been down to goal difference or a point or 2. Innit?

 

[HibeeJibee]

21 minutes ago, ftk said:

BT and SPFL want to launch this tv deal with a new league format similar to what they did with the league cup this season. Changes are definitely on the cards.

What about what the clubs and fans want?

And is it really justifiable changing the league format just so there happens to be something slightly "different" when a TV deal starts? That deal might only last a few years anyway.

Particularly when its a format that isn't new, but was actually proposed and rejected before.


Also interesting to know if it's BT or the league hierarchy pushing it.

As I said on another thread I don't really see what 8-8-8 does for BT on an ongoing basis. It's still a top 12... they swap Premiership split after 33-games for one in each division after 22-games... they also lose 2 matchdays and the playoffs.


Existing deal with BT & Sky together still has 3.5yrs to run, too? Intriguing and a bit perplexing why this is all being finalised now.

Edited March 18, 2017 by HibeeJibee

[ftk]

What about what the clubs and fans want?

And is it really justifiable changing the league format just so there happens to be something slightly "different" when a TV deal starts? That deal might only last a few years anyway.

Particularly when its a format that isn't new, but was actually proposed and rejected before.


Also interesting to know if it's BT or the league hierarchy pushing it.

As I said on another thread I don't really see what 8-8-8 does for BT on an ongoing basis. It's still a top 12... they get an extra split... they also lose 2 matchdays and the playoffs.


Existing deal with BT & Sky together still has 3.5yrs to run, too? Intriguing and a bit perplexing why this is all being finalised now.

A new league format would be attractive to BT who are really going to promote scottish football big time, possibly even having an spfl dedicated channel. Tv money is the holly grail for club chairman and supporters are secondary so what BT wants BT gets. Deal being put together just now hoping sky push the bidding price up and also gives plenty of time to vote in any new changes to league structure.

[HibeeJibee]

Well, fair enough. As I say if getting exclusive rights to Scottish football is worth so much money to them, I don't really follow how moving from 12-10 playing 38 or 36 games with one split and playoffs, to 12-12 both playing 36 games with two splits (much earlier) but no playoffs, makes much difference... Other than being "a bit fresh", but you've got to balance that with the fact it went down like a lead balloon with fans last time. That's why I wonder if it's BT that is pushing it, or if the league hierarchy see it as an opportunity to bundle this up and get it past by saying it is intrinsic to the deal?

Presumably their staple diet of matches will continue to be OF derbies & away games, matches between Hearts/Hibs/Aberdeen/Dundee/Dundee Utd, plus end-of-season stuff. As I say though 8-8-8 actually abolishes playoffs, the Championship titlerace, and the late split with lots of head-to-heads for the closing month.

One of the ironies of your "holy grail" and "fans are secondary" point is of course that the recent UEFA analysis showed that gate income was more important in Scotland than almost anywhere, and TV money far less important.

On the other hand a TV deal gives you a cheque whereas growing your support is something you have to do yourself and can be difficult, tbf.

[EdTheDuck]

13 minutes ago, ftk said:

A new league format would be attractive to BT who are really going to promote scottish football big time, possibly even having an spfl dedicated channel. Tv money is the holly grail for club chairman and supporters are secondary so what BT wants BT gets. Deal being put together just now hoping sky push the bidding price up and also gives plenty of time to vote in any new changes to league structure.

I've no idea where you're getting your information from but I would go back and check their credentials because there's no chance of an spfl dedicated channel - dedicated OF channel on Sky a few back was a complete bust.

And why BT want to promote Scottish football "big time" is something of a mystery - although the smaller audience comes at a fraction of the price of the EPL there simply isn't enough content to fill huge swathes of air-time.

By the way, what if the clubs reject whatever this change is? (£31M isn't going to change the world I'm afraid and I'd wager the vast majority is ear-marked for Glasgow) Sky's nose is seriously out of joint and BT are left with egg on their face. That would put our football in a worse place than it is now.

[ftk]

I've no idea where you're getting your information from but I would go back and check their credentials because there's no chance of an spfl dedicated channel - dedicated OF channel on Sky a few back was a complete bust.And why BT want to promote Scottish football "big time" is something of a mystery - although the smaller audience comes at a fraction of the price of the EPL there simply isn't enough content to fill huge swathes of air-time.

By the way, what if the clubs reject whatever this change is? (£31M isn't going to change the world I'm afraid and I'd wager the vast majority is ear-marked for Glasgow) Sky's nose is seriously out of joint and BT are left with egg on their face. That would put our football in a worse place than it is now.

 

Doncaster and his cronies report their progress back to all the club's so info gets out. Not saying it's all 100% accurate. If the deal was 31 million per season the club chairmen would do anything to get their hands on that cash as it would be more than double what they get just now.

 

 

 

[aa75]

I got a sure fire winner of an idea for the ESS-PEE-EFF-ELL.

Why not just leave the leagues exactly as they are and call the divisions different names, and also the governing body gets a new name.  No other changes are required.

Theres no way it will not improve the quality of the Scottish game.  I would guarantee it as I am not and never have been a professional footballer, so I know nothing about football apart from supporting it.  As a supporter I know this will be universally popular and we wont know the difference as we stick our fingers in our ears and go la la la.



 

[tamba_trio]

Why not have a salary cap?  I mean, if we're wanting more competition isn't that the simplest way?  

Split TV money, prize money and gate money equally and have a salary cap.  It's not rocket science to think that if teams are playing in a league together then it'd be best if they have similar resources. 

Maybe if teams outside Glasgow had a chance at winning the league before we all die, it might increase their crowds.  And maybe TV would pay more to show a league that wasn't a foregone conclusion every year. 

[BFTD]

3 hours ago, tamba_trio said:

Why not have a salary cap?

...and deny us all Armageddon Mk. 2?  

[leb8t]

As Brexit approaches would it be possible to restrict the number of non Scots or non-assimilated Scots?

[thekorean]

On 4/2/2017 at 11:36, tamba_trio said:

Why not have a salary cap?  I mean, if we're wanting more competition isn't that the simplest way?  

Split TV money, prize money and gate money equally and have a salary cap.  It's not rocket science to think that if teams are playing in a league together then it'd be best if they have similar resources. 

Maybe if teams outside Glasgow had a chance at winning the league before we all die, it might increase their crowds.  And maybe TV would pay more to show a league that wasn't a foregone conclusion every year. 

You do realize that implementing salary cap would hurt the Celtic most?