HTG Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I can't see the SFA upsetting a league that was in place before the pyramid and has decades of history just for the sake of a granting or not granting a licence to a handful of teams outside the pyramid and then insisting they play in the Highland League. Its all work in progress and right now the top of the 5th tier, the playoffs and promotion to the big leagues is still relatively new, now the next stage in the cascade downwards is to sort out the league itself, that is if the member clubs decide it needs to change. But most of all clubs playing in the Superleague need to show intent to play in the Highland League not all about Banks O'Dee. Taking power away from the clubs and forcing the pyramid down their throats is Pyramid Pete territory. Can't have that, clubs have to be able to decide their own future, they didn't have that taken away from them just because they agreed to join the pyramid. The SFA have absolutely taken away the power of clubs in the south to self determine where they play. You cannot get a licence without committing to the pyramid. Surely you cannot have a situation in the North where the opposite is true just because it suits. It is all about Golspie and Banks o Dee at the moment. If they are authorised to play in the pyramid then it's up to the area they play in to deal with that. And they don't need lights. That's not a tier 5 requirement. I realise the politics here but at its simplest all I'm asking is how one set of rules can exist for Auchinleck but not for Golspie. It's up to those responsible for the pyramid to ensure there is consistency and if the only way to enable Golspie and Banks o Dee to play at tier 5 is to split the league then that's what needs to happen. If the HFL doesn't want any part of this then they need to remove themselves from the pyramid and deal with whatever that throws up in terms of loss of privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Can cause a potential farce that system tho, teams potentially getting promoted from way down in the league, do we really want clubs being prompted when they have struggled to be successful at their current level? Turriff Utd only just escaped relegation to the 1st Division on goal difference the season they were elected, Formartine Utd and Strathspey Thistle finished 2nd and 3rd in the 1st Division, yet all three have been transformed over the last 5 years. Even so I agree, promotion should only be granted to the clubs that finish in the promotion places or win play offs, at City we know all about that having been knocked back from the promotion twice despite winning the league. But if a club does not want to be promoted then they should be allowed to say no, especially at this level where most of the clubs are amateur and its up to other ambitious clubs to be better and finish above them anyway. There has been examples of non league clubs knocking back promotion (Flackwell Heath last season http://www.maidenhead-advertiser.co.uk/Sport/Football/Other-local-clubs/From-cheers-to-tears-as-Flackwell-Heath-refuse-promotion-to-Southern-League-South-West-Division-1-18062015.htm. It could be a disaster for a club not wanting to go up say for financial reasons or if most of their players don't fancy the extra travel because of their work commitments or if the committee can't afford to dedicate to the extra time and effort required from the step up. With the exception of 4 or 5 clubs in the Superleague making the jump to the Highland League would be a massive step and far too much for most, especially those who are quite happy to stay where they are in the order anyway and have no wish to play above level 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Inverness City are pretty much the bridge between the amateur leagues that get played in public parks in the summer and Highland League clubs like Clach, Nairn County and Speyside Thistle this was the intention since there was no club in Inverness filling this role giving amateur players from the area an opportunity to step up. I'm not sure if City would ever go for Highland League football in the near future. I was told the City players don't get paid a penny by a mother of one of the players at the last game I went to. They've done a good job with the space they have in Bught Park, but it would need long term investment to bring it up to par and I think they only have temporary rights to it, and they don't have any money anyway. Entertaining football though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The SFA have absolutely taken away the power of clubs in the south to self determine where they play. You cannot get a licence without committing to the pyramid. Surely you cannot have a situation in the North where the opposite is true just because it suits. It is all about Golspie and Banks o Dee at the moment. If they are authorised to play in the pyramid then it's up to the area they play in to deal with that. And they don't need lights. That's not a tier 5 requirement. I realise the politics here but at its simplest all I'm asking is how one set of rules can exist for Auchinleck but not for Golspie. It's up to those responsible for the pyramid to ensure there is consistency and if the only way to enable Golspie and Banks o Dee to play at tier 5 is to split the league then that's what needs to happen. If the HFL doesn't want any part of this then they need to remove themselves from the pyramid and deal with whatever that throws up in terms of loss of privilege. Is it essential and a priority for both clubs to play at level 5?. Would it not be just as good for clubs at potential level 6 to gain licenses if they so wished to put in the work so if they win promotion so there are no issues?. Its got me wondering about the focus on these two small clubs in the north of Scotland and why supporters in the East and West region are so interested in it?. Has there been an almighty cock up among the Junior teams south of the Tay?. Is there pressure from the rival Lowland League which could potentially give players better deals and cherry pick the bigger Junior clubs for their top players? I don't know, but if the LL is the SFA and the SPFL's darlings and even if they only have a few teams so far compared to the Juniors they will eventually draw players away from the Juniors if they aren't already doing so now. How many teams in the Juniors West and East Regions have achieved SFA licenses?. Saying this because the equivalent clubs in the North have been working on this for years, what have their similar size or larger Superleague contemporaries in the East and West Juniors being doing while the Highland League has been getting its house in order? I'm not having a go at the Juniors in the south, its a different world with different issues, there are gaps in my knowledge on licenses with clubs in the South so really just wanting to find out who has what. (I know Girvan don't) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Interest lies in the fact that clubs have to be "committed to the pyramid system" to obtain SFA licences, and how this works in the north with HL shut. It is clearly an area which needs to be resolved. Even if you look at the isolated case of Banks o'Dee - here is a club which wants to get into HL, but do not have a route in to achieve. (That said I recall they received their licence at the same time as Linlithgow so they may be covered by the "waiver" not by the lack of feeders below tier 5). Golspie and Halkirk have also been linked with an interest in stepping-up, but it clearly isn't viable for their league - the North Caledonian - to become the feeder league as it only has 6 clubs, only plays 10 games and only covers territory from Inverness up to Orkney. In the north things should actually be most simple, as you've only got the existing North Junior pyramid to work with - the questions of the NCL and the Tayside Juniors need not be resolved in the same fell swoop. It shouldn't be beyond the wits to somehow connect HL and NR Superleague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 In the north things should actually be most simple, as you've only got the existing North Junior pyramid to work with - the questions of the NCL and the Tayside Juniors need not be resolved in the same fell swoop. It shouldn't be beyond the wits to somehow connect HL and NR Superleague. Quite. You shouldn't have an automatic right to promotion just by paying for the licensing criteria. I'd love the North Caledonian League to get more integrated with the North Juniors though, an away trip to Orkney would be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Quite. You shouldn't have an automatic right to promotion just by paying for the licensing criteria. I'd love the North Caledonian League to get more integrated with the North Juniors though, an away trip to Orkney would be fun. Imagine the state of us supporters and players stumbling off the bus back in Inverness after the journey back from Scrabster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Imagine the state of us supporters and players stumbling off the bus back in Inverness after the journey back from Scrabster. Might as well drop us off at Raigmore.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Is it essential and a priority for both clubs to play at level 5?. Would it not be just as good for clubs at potential level 6 to gain licenses if they so wished to put in the work so if they win promotion so there are no issues?. Its got me wondering about the focus on these two small clubs in the north of Scotland and why supporters in the East and West region are so interested in it?. Has there been an almighty cock up among the Junior teams south of the Tay?. Is there pressure from the rival Lowland League which could potentially give players better deals and cherry pick the bigger Junior clubs for their top players? I don't know, but if the LL is the SFA and the SPFL's darlings and even if they only have a few teams so far compared to the Juniors they will eventually draw players away from the Juniors if they aren't already doing so now. How many teams in the Juniors West and East Regions have achieved SFA licenses?. Saying this because the equivalent clubs in the North have been working on this for years, what have their similar size or larger Superleague contemporaries in the East and West Juniors being doing while the Highland League has been getting its house in order? I'm not having a go at the Juniors in the south, its a different world with different issues, there are gaps in my knowledge on licenses with clubs in the South so really just wanting to find out who has what. (I know Girvan don't) I don't think it's essential for them to play at tier 5 but the sfa went out of their way to push junior teams in the south towards pyramid participation after Linlithgow had applied. That in itself has put a stop on clubs like Talbot putting in a licence application because they don't want to be forced into the SoS league. What i am saying is that if teams in the North can crack on with licencing with no worries whatsoever about being forced to play in a league they'd rather not be part of then it is completely inequitable to apply that sort of rule to teams in the south and deny them a place in the Scottish Cup not to mention the recognition of their efforts to get their structure and stadium up to the level required. The SFA have got big questions to answer before their pyramid is shown up for what it is in terms of there being a self evident desire to shut junior football out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I don't think it's essential for them to play at tier 5 but the sfa went out of their way to push junior teams in the south towards pyramid participation after Linlithgow had applied. That in itself has put a stop on clubs like Talbot putting in a licence application because they don't want to be forced into the SoS league. What i am saying is that if teams in the North can crack on with licencing with no worries whatsoever about being forced to play in a league they'd rather not be part of then it is completely inequitable to apply that sort of rule to teams in the south and deny them a place in the Scottish Cup not to mention the recognition of their efforts to get their structure and stadium up to the level required. The SFA have got big questions to answer before their pyramid is shown up for what it is in terms of there being a self evident desire to shut junior football out. Thing is the North football isn't so entrenched in the idea of Junior football and protecting what could be that independent spirit like the equivalent of NASCAR in the Southern States in the USA. See what happens when the governing body introduces new safety measures into Nascar and is always met with resistance because the governing body are regarded as outsiders who don't understand our ways. The HL clubs have been qualifying for decades through a qualifying cup that preceded the automatic entry we see now, same goes for the teams from the East of Scotland. The Juniors have had a 100+ years to get involved and refused everytime. Remember Junior clubs were invited to participate in the senior cup, its not an entitlement. The idea was inviting the Juniors in would give them a taste, an incentive a target to aim for if they wanted it. I guess most of them don't want it bad enough. Talbot would walk the SOS in one season and go straight into the LL without any problem, but its that one season, that one measly season. Why don't the top junior clubs in the west if they can't stand to be away from each other break away and form their own league under the SFA and feed the Lowland League?. I don't think they are shutting Junior football out since North Junior clubs are gaining licences and quality marks. You do realise Banks O'Dee could still enter the senior cup in a couple of seasons as North Champions yet the East and West Champions despite having better players and more supporters don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The SFA register junior players and appoint the referees for junior games, so the idea that the SJFA is separate from the SFA is only in people's heads. The whole junior-senior thing would have been the first thing to go if the SFA were serious about a pyramid, but they clearly weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The SFA register junior players and appoint the referees for junior games, so the idea that the SJFA is separate from the SFA is only in people's heads. The whole junior-senior thing would have been the first thing to go if the SFA were serious about a pyramid, but they clearly weren't. In which case they should not seek to apply pressure on one group of clubs when they've no intention of doing likewise to another group in broadly similar circumstances. It just looks more and more like the SFA wanred to avoid an avalanche of permanent junior representation in the Scottish Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 The SFA register junior players and appoint the referees for junior games, so the idea that the SJFA is separate from the SFA is only in people's heads. The whole junior-senior thing would have been the first thing to go if the SFA were serious about a pyramid, but they clearly weren't. Give it time, the pyramids didn't just appear overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 In which case they should not seek to apply pressure on one group of clubs when they've no intention of doing likewise to another group in broadly similar circumstances. It just looks more and more like the SFA wanred to avoid an avalanche of permanent junior representation in the Scottish Cup. This is why they were invited to compete in the Scottish Cup in the first place?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calmac25 Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 How did Glasgow Uni get round the commitment to a pyramid question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 This is why they were invited to compete in the Scottish Cup in the first place?. That's not entirely fair. A select few were invited to play - a maximum of 4 of the 160+ based on a need to qualify. And I'm pretty sure the invite wouldn't be extended by the current regime at Hampden. Then Linlithgow applied for a licence under their own steam. No problem apparently. But after the paperwork was submitted, the rules were changed and a signed commitment to the pyramid included. Why? Why make up new conditions on the hoof? And if those conditions are to be applied, when are we to see Golspie taking their place in it if the SFA are so keen on it? I'd love to see Haddington push on with their application and commit on the basis of the timescale and pressure applied in the Highlands. I'm not having a pop at the HFL here. I'm just not having this "you must commit" pish from the sfa if it only applies south of the Tay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I'm not sure if Golspie would want to join the HFL, I suspect that they went for a licence purely to protect their Scottish Cup status. However, that's not to say they wouldn't wish to progress in the future. This is the bit I'm interested in, because I'm of the opinion that any number of Junior clubs can go through the licencing process and gain access to the Scottish Cup regardless of the piece of paper they have to sign to "commit" to the Pyramid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CityDave Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 That's not entirely fair. A select few were invited to play - a maximum of 4 of the 160+ based on a need to qualify. And I'm pretty sure the invite wouldn't be extended by the current regime at Hampden. Then Linlithgow applied for a licence under their own steam. No problem apparently. But after the paperwork was submitted, the rules were changed and a signed commitment to the pyramid included. Why? Why make up new conditions on the hoof? And if those conditions are to be applied, when are we to see Golspie taking their place in it if the SFA are so keen on it? I'd love to see Haddington push on with their application and commit on the basis of the timescale and pressure applied in the Highlands. I'm not having a pop at the HFL here. I'm just not having this "you must commit" pish from the sfa if it only applies south of the Tay. Golspie Sutherland play in a league that has been affiliated with the SFA for many years and have their disciplinary procedures dealt with by the SFA not only that but clubs that play in that league past and present have competed in the North of Scotland Cup along with Highland League clubs west of Elgin. So there is a historical tie in with the SFA that goes back decades where as the Juniors are more like a separate branch. However over the years both Banks O'Dee (Juniors) and Aberdeen University (Amateur and now Juniors) have competed in the Aberdeenshire Cup along side clubs competing in the Highland League. So both Banks O' Dee and Golspie Sutherland have a history of playing in SFA competitions for a good number of years. So I don't think the SFA had to put any pressure on aspiring North clubs many of whom had already achieved their entry level even before the HL entered the pyramid system. As far as Linlithgow Rose are concerned it looks like they have been hung out to dry, but then what wrong with committing to the pyramid?. The club can say it is but does that mean they have to join next season?. If the club were committed to gaining an entry level license surely this couldn't be only to compete in the Scottish Cup since the Juniors won't be invited season 2016/17 (not sure if this includes licensed Juniors and amateurs) so they must have been aware of the criteria. Just reads like some folks should just grow a pair. I wonder if Linlithgow Rose might be the first to make the jump?. Might just catch on especially with the ambitious Junior clubs who don't already have a senior team in their town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 This is the bit I'm interested in, because I'm of the opinion that any number of Junior clubs can go through the licencing process and gain access to the Scottish Cup regardless of the piece of paper they have to sign to "commit" to the Pyramid. They'd certainly be on strong ground if Golspie creates a precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I'd love to see Haddington push on with their application and commit on the basis of the timescale and pressure applied in the Highlands. I'm not having a pop at the HFL here. I'm just not having this "you must commit" pish from the sfa if it only applies south of the Tay. It's going to be an interesting watch over the next 12 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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