Golspie Sutherland

[welshbairn]

Nothing wrong with the traditionalist stance, but the HL is now level 5 North on the pyramid and is open at the top for teams to play off against a Lowland rival to see who will take on the bottom club in League 2. I think the league committee are thinking about the top end of the league and the possibility of who could fall into the HL and softening that blow. With this in mind a HL Premiership might not be a bad idea and maybe once this goes through then the HL might start looking at the other end. A 2nd HL division might be a good entry league for clubs coming up from the Juniors and given the track record of clubs joining the HL from the Juniors it has to be considered at some point.

Looking at the HL right now... of the top 4 teams in the league this week 3 of them are ex juniors who have joined within the last 30 years (2 within the last 6 years). 7th place Inverurie Locos have also added much to the league since joining from the Juniors. At the time of applying for the HL two of the three clubs that eventually joined in season 2009/10 were outside the Superleague and Turriff were struggling near the foot of the Superleague, now within 6 years 2 of the three are in the race for the HL title and a shot at promotion to the Scottish League. Its very possible the likes of Culter and Banks O' Dee if allowed in could also follow in the footsteps of Formartine and Turriff and become top teams in the HL in the near future and compete eventually for a place in the SPFL.

I'm all for the "pyramid" extending below the HL, but the only plan just now is to cover the unlikely event that a LL team beats a HL team, then the bottom SPFL team who happen to be in the North Region, at least once and possibly 3 times. Then there will be a split and presumably the pyramid extended to the NRJFA. It's a bit of a disgrace that Banks O'Dee aren't already in the HL, but possibly the thinking was based partly of geographical spread, there's already a big concentration of teams around Aberdeen. For whatever ever reason Turriff and Formartine were chosen before Banks O'Dee, who were by far the best prepared for the step up, Formartine in particular hardly played a home game that hadn't been postponed until last year's improvements because of the state of their pitch. The final slot was given to Strathspey Thistle which I think was sound to stop the Highland League becoming more like the Shire Cup.

[CityDave]

I'm all for the "pyramid" extending below the HL, but the only plan just now is to cover the unlikely event that a LL team beats a HL team, then the bottom SPFL team who happen to be in the North Region, at least once and possibly 3 times. Then there will be a split and presumably the pyramid extended to the NRJFA. It's a bit of a disgrace that Banks O'Dee aren't already in the HL, but possibly the thinking was based partly of geographical spread, there's already a big concentration of teams around Aberdeen. For whatever ever reason Turriff and Formartine were chosen before Banks O'Dee, who were by far the best prepared for the step up, Formartine in particular hardly played a home game that hadn't been postponed until last year's improvements because of the state of their pitch. The final slot was given to Strathspey Thistle which I think was sound to stop the Highland League becoming more like the Shire Cup.

http://sport.stv.tv/football/79245-despair-amid-joy-as-highland-league-welcomes-new-clubs/

Strathspey Thistle were the 2nd team voted in. Moneybags Formartine Utd just pipped BOD for the final place. I think the actual vote count is somewhere in the HL forum....somewhere.

[HTG]

It doesn't seem tenable that the HFL should be closed off to licenced teams when in the south the sfa have added in a requirement to engage with the pyramid (with the inference that this is about not staying in the juniors).

Geography is no reason not to allow clubs in. It's almost inevitable that there will be a pull towards Aberdeen when it's the most populous area of the region.

"Full up" isn't good enough if clubs like Golspie or Banks o Dee want in and meet the criteria. I've wondered from the outset how the HFL would manage the bottom end of the table in a pyramid but I'm not seeing much movement.

[CityDave]

It doesn't seem tenable that the HFL should be closed off to licenced teams when in the south the sfa have added in a requirement to engage with the pyramid (with the inference that this is about not staying in the juniors).

Geography is no reason not to allow clubs in. It's almost inevitable that there will be a pull towards Aberdeen when it's the most populous area of the region.

"Full up" isn't good enough if clubs like Golspie or Banks o Dee want in and meet the criteria. I've wondered from the outset how the HFL would manage the bottom end of the table in a pyramid but I'm not seeing much movement.

Maybe they're worried about some pesky amateurs like Inverness City might put them to shame.

Or maybe those that vote from clubs at the bottom of the HL want to keep their comfort zone and struggle on from season to season with little hope of even reaching the dizzy heights of 12th in September. Junior clubs coming up have breathed new life into what was a stagnating league, there really shouldn't be any system in place that prevents an ambitious club from progressing and in any case a spell in the 6th tier might not be a bad thing for clubs like Rothes and Fort William but then turkeys don't vote for christmas.

[HTG]

There really shouldn't be a vote. Either increase the size of the league on an ever expanding basis and deal with the fixture consequences, split to 2 leagues of 10 or introduce a split half way through the season after the first complete round of games so that the top half play the second half of the season against each other whilst the bottom half do the same. If that later model were brought in you'd probably be able to accommodate up to 24 clubs without needing to split into 2 divisions as it would give you 34 games. The problem is that in a 20 team league you may struggle to play 38 games whilst only playing 28 in a 19/9 split may be seen as too few.

[Cyclizine]

I'm not sure if Golspie would want to join the HFL, I suspect that they went for a licence purely to protect their Scottish Cup status. However, that's not to say they wouldn't wish to progress in the future.

There does need to be a viable league below the HFL for ambitious clubs and clubs which fall out of the HFL. Whether this is the North Superleague, a geographically expanded North Caledonian league, a HFL2 or something new doesn't matter, so long as there is something there.

[HTG]

Surely Golspie are impacted by the SFA demand for commitment to the pyramid? If there is no movement in the Highlands in terms of Golspie and Banks o Dee then I think the juniors in the south have carte blanche to secure a licence and guarantee their Scottish Cup status. You couldn't deny Auchinleck Talbot for example just because the SOS league is open to them whilst at the same time accepting that by geographical quirk of fate, an Auchinleck Talbot equivalent in say Arbroath would be able to crack on playing junior, amateur or whatever.

[CityDave]

I'm not sure if Golspie would want to join the HFL, I suspect that they went for a licence purely to protect their Scottish Cup status. However, that's not to say they wouldn't wish to progress in the future.

There does need to be a viable league below the HFL for ambitious clubs and clubs which fall out of the HFL. Whether this is the North Superleague, a geographically expanded North Caledonian league, a HFL2 or something new doesn't matter, so long as there is something there.

If the NCL expands it would be bringing in more clubs from Caithness or new clubs from the Islands as it stands the NCL has suffered over the years from a lack of teams, this season its only 6. Golspie Sutherland, Halkirk, Orkney, Thurso, Invergordon and Alness Utd. I don't see the NCL as a stepping stone to the Highland League, these teams are a standard just a step above than the better local works or pub sides in amateur football same as the lower teams that play in the North Juniors West and East Regional Leagues and would struggle badly in the Highland League. I've been impressed with Halkirk they look a decent team but just like if Brora Rangers had made the Scottish League they would struggle to put a squad together from their own region. Its one of the major problems a lot of teams face who have to travel distances in their league setup or cup competitions is having enough players that will commit to playing regularly during a season. There does seem to be less players able to play football at weekends than there used to be, but that's another topic.

Inverness City joined the Juniors from the NCL simply because the North Juniors has more teams to play against and many of whom at the top end are a higher standard than those playing in the NCL and of course Inverness hadn't had a Juniors team for over 70 years. I haven't heard of any team leaving the Juniors to play in the NCL.

The Juniors are probably the best way for clubs to progress up towards a 5th tier up here in the North of Scotland but to appease the HL's traditional bottom feeders there would need to be a system that would soften the blow if current HL clubs end up relegated to the NRJF Superleague.

[CityDave]

There really shouldn't be a vote. Either increase the size of the league on an ever expanding basis and deal with the fixture consequences, split to 2 leagues of 10 or introduce a split half way through the season after the first complete round of games so that the top half play the second half of the season against each other whilst the bottom half do the same. If that later model were brought in you'd probably be able to accommodate up to 24 clubs without needing to split into 2 divisions as it would give you 34 games. The problem is that in a 20 team league you may struggle to play 38 games whilst only playing 28 in a 19/9 split may be seen as too few.

So who else would decide on how the league is run?.

Just like in the SPFL or in the Juniors the Highland League is run and decisions are made by the member clubs that make up the league so there has to be a vote by the member clubs on changes to a league set up that will directly affect their club. All clubs are different and have different issues and concerns that need to be covered and considered when there are changes to a league setup, this includes potential new clubs as well as clubs struggling from day to day in the HL. So the HL would have to speak to the SJFA and the North Region reps, no one else can do it.

[LongTimeLurker]

Surely Golspie are impacted by the SFA demand for commitment to the pyramid? If there is no movement in the Highlands in terms of Golspie and Banks o Dee then I think the juniors in the south have carte blanche to secure a licence and guarantee their Scottish Cup status.

All it takes is one club to give it a whirl and test this out in practice. Also would have thought some of the junior clubs in Dundee that have reasonably good grounds (North End, Downfield and Violet come to mind) would not have all that much to do to meet the basic requirements on the facilities side of things and might be well placed to exploit the Banks O'Dee precedent to obtain regular Scottish Cup entry given they fall under the HL's catchment area.

[HTG]

So who else would decide on how the league is run?.

Just like in the SPFL or in the Juniors the Highland League is run and decisions are made by the member clubs that make up the league so there has to be a vote by the member clubs on changes to a league set up that will directly affect their club. All clubs are different and have different issues and concerns that need to be covered and considered when there are changes to a league setup, this includes potential new clubs as well as clubs struggling from day to day in the HL. So the HL would have to speak to the SJFA and the North Region reps, no one else can do it.

I appreciate all of that. What I'm saying though is that the option to refuse licenced teams access to the pyramid would not meet the SFA's criteria for the HFL. You can't have an open door at one end and a closed door at the other when there are clubs with licences who should be part of the pyramid but can't be because it doesn't suit those already in the pyramid.

If that were allowed then the SFA approach to managing licence applications in the south would be absolutely fucked. There has to be consistency of treatment of clubs with licences.

So either expand the league or restructure it so that it can accommodate newly licenced clubs. To continue to deny them should see the HFL removed from the pyramid and, in time, all licences removed from its members - and as a result Scottish Cup access. Sounds draconian but that's the logical view of where this could end. Somehow I think the SFA bottle would crash a long way before that.

[parsforlife]

Of course there would need to be a vote, but if the sfa lead negotiations for a system of promotion and relegation between the HL, north juniors and NCL and then the HL clubs vote against the proposal then the teams voting against would be breaking thier commitment to the pyramid and lose their licences as a result, this would mean kicking them out of the HL or have the HL lose its position at tier 5.

Just as in the south there is frustration at different body's not talking, the same must be said in the north.

[HTG]

Of course there would need to be a vote, but if the sfa lead negotiations for a system of promotion and relegation between the HL, north juniors and NCL and then the HL clubs vote against the proposal then the teams voting against would be breaking thier commitment to the pyramid and lose their licences as a result, this would mean kicking them out of the HL or have the HL lose its position at tier 5.

Just as in the south there is frustration at different body's not talking, the same must be said in the north.

Irrespective of any formal mechanism for promotion and relegation, how does the SFA respond to the clubs who have licences, should be part of the pyramid but are not?

The North Juniors are governed by the same group which is so anti pyramid in the south.

If Golspie have just secured a licence then they should play in the pyramid from next season. If there is no mechanism to get them into the HFL then they should be added to the current league. As should Banks o Dee if they indicate a desire to be part of it all. If that makes things awkward for the HFL then the HFL needs to find its solution rather than keep clubs out because they're inconvenient.

[welshbairn]

Irrespective of any formal mechanism for promotion and relegation, how does the SFA respond to the clubs who have licences, should be part of the pyramid but are not?

The North Juniors are governed by the same group which is so anti pyramid in the south.

If Golspie have just secured a licence then they should play in the pyramid from next season. If there is no mechanism to get them into the HFL then they should be added to the current league. As should Banks o Dee if they indicate a desire to be part of it all. If that makes things awkward for the HFL then the HFL needs to find its solution rather than keep clubs out because they're inconvenient.

Would Golspie not have to win promotion to the North Region Super League first? Sorry, not to sure how the Juniors work up here, only that Inverness City recently won promotion from North Region West.. Is the North Caledonian League off on it's own, not linked with the other North Junior leagues?

[CityDave]

I appreciate all of that. What I'm saying though is that the option to refuse licenced teams access to the pyramid would not meet the SFA's criteria for the HFL. You can't have an open door at one end and a closed door at the other when there are clubs with licences who should be part of the pyramid but can't be because it doesn't suit those already in the pyramid.

If that were allowed then the SFA approach to managing licence applications in the south would be absolutely fucked. There has to be consistency of treatment of clubs with licences.

So either expand the league or restructure it so that it can accommodate newly licenced clubs. To continue to deny them should see the HFL removed from the pyramid and, in time, all licences removed from its members - and as a result Scottish Cup access. Sounds draconian but that's the logical view of where this could end. Somehow I think the SFA bottle would crash a long way before that.

I can't see the SFA upsetting a league that was in place before the pyramid and has decades of history just for the sake of a granting or not granting a licence to a handful of teams outside the pyramid and then insisting they play in the Highland League. Its all work in progress and right now the top of the 5th tier, the playoffs and promotion to the big leagues is still relatively new, now the next stage in the cascade downwards is to sort out the league itself, that is if the member clubs decide it needs to change. But most of all clubs playing in the Superleague need to show intent to play in the Highland League not all about Banks O'Dee.

Taking power away from the clubs and forcing the pyramid down their throats is Pyramid Pete territory. Can't have that, clubs have to be able to decide their own future, they didn't have that taken away from them just because they agreed to join the pyramid.

[CityDave]

Irrespective of any formal mechanism for promotion and relegation, how does the SFA respond to the clubs who have licences, should be part of the pyramid but are not?

The North Juniors are governed by the same group which is so anti pyramid in the south.

If Golspie have just secured a licence then they should play in the pyramid from next season. If there is no mechanism to get them into the HFL then they should be added to the current league. As should Banks o Dee if they indicate a desire to be part of it all. If that makes things awkward for the HFL then the HFL needs to find its solution rather than keep clubs out because they're inconvenient.

I thought George Rose of New Elgin was still President and Derek Davidson of Nairn St. Ninian was still Vice President. The North Region does not need to ask permission from the SJFA to have league reconstruction meetings nor to tell them how to set up their league. If the North Region and the Highland League agreed to have promotion and relegation between the Highland League and the North Superleague, it would be very difficult for the SJFA to knock it back if the clubs in the Superleague are for it.

Also the Highland League are not keeping clubs out, six years ago 3 Junior clubs moved up, before that in 2001 Inverurie Locos joined, before that it was Cove Rangers another Junior outfit and back in the eighties Fort William from the NCL applied and were successful. To join the HL it takes money to come up to standard and most North Junior clubs fall short simply because they don't have the cash, resources to stretch to such things as floodlights etc. There has been improvements to facilities with some clubs especially in the lower reaches of the North Juniors with such things as improving the dressing rooms, toilets, perimeter boundaries (both ground and pitch), dugouts. If there was a promotion from the Superleague to the Highland League it would have to be optional.

But many of the top clubs in the East and West regions like Auchinleck or Linlithgow Rose should have licences (I don't know for certain how many clubs in the East and West have). Those two examples grounds are just as good as any Highland League ground, I've been to both and have been impressed. Clubs in the North Superleague have been working towards improvement and gaining licences and quality marks such as Dyce Juniors and Banchory St. Ternan have done. Don't clubs in the East and West region bother with this ladder?.

[welshbairn]

Promotion should be based on sporting merit as well as lightbulbs and shelters. It should go to the top team at the end of the season who fulfills the requirements, not just the team with the most money. It'll take Inverness City probably decades to fulfill the requirements though.

[parsforlife]

To join the HL it takes money to come up to standard and most North Junior clubs fall short simply because they don't have the cash, resources to stretch to such things as floodlights etc. There has been improvements to facilities with some clubs especially in the lower reaches of the North Juniors with such things as improving the dressing rooms, toilets, perimeter boundaries (both ground and pitch), dugouts. If there was a promotion from the Superleague to the Highland League it would have to be optional.

Can the HL have floodlights as a requirement now? With them not needed for entry level licence IMO its not right for the HL and LL to have different requirements.

As for optional promotion i can't agree, it severely hampers any pyramid for clubs to choose to stay where they are indefinitely.

This does not mean clubs should be forced to make improvements they can't afford, they should be forced to accept promotion If offered, which is not the same as simply winning the league/finishing in promotion slots.

[parsforlife]

Promotion should be based on sporting merit as well as lightbulbs and shelters. It should go to the top team at the end of the season who fulfills the requirements, not just the team with the most money. It'll take Inverness City probably decades to fulfill the requirements though.

Can cause a potential farce that system tho, teams potentially getting promoted from way down in the league, do we really want clubs being prompted when they have struggled to be successful at their current level?

[CityDave]

Promotion should be based on sporting merit as well as lightbulbs and shelters. It should go to the top team at the end of the season who fulfills the requirements, not just the team with the most money. It'll take Inverness City probably decades to fulfill the requirements though.

Inverness City are pretty much the bridge between the amateur leagues that get played in public parks in the summer and Highland League clubs like Clach, Nairn County and Speyside Thistle this was the intention since there was no club in Inverness filling this role giving amateur players from the area an opportunity to step up. I'm not sure if City would ever go for Highland League football in the near future.