World cup 2018 campaign

[Dunning1874]

On 7/17/2016 at 18:55, DAFC. said:

Had a wee thought yesterday. How fucking good was our 2008 Euro qualifying squad compared to every qualifying squad since? Peak James McFadden, Alan Hutton beasting everyone down the right, Craig Gordon in his prime, Kris Boyd scoring goals for fun. I mean, it wasn't even THAT good a team, but we haven't been anywhere near as good since and I can't see us getting thereabouts anytime soon...and we didn't even qualify!  

This World Cup qualifying campaign will be a tragedy, much like the 2012 qualifying campaign. Just haven't got the players compared to Slovenia, Slovakia etc. I think finishing 3rd will be respectable but I think I've already resigned to the fact I'll never see my country play at a World Cup. Hope that's cheered a few up!

Our current squad is vastly superior in both quality and depth.

We don't have a single goalkeeper as good as Gordon was then but we still have three quality goalkeepers, and although we don't have as good a centre back as Weir now he spent most of that campaign playing alongside Stephen McManus, who Martin and Hanley are both comfortably better than. Centre back is the weakest area in the squad now, but while we're lacking depth there, in that campaign both Steven Pressley and Graeme Murty started games, while Steven Caldwell and Russell Anderson featured in squads. Greer is too old and Berra is mince, but they're better than those options.

Right back I'll give you, as Hutton was obviously a better player then than he is now. He started 4 of the 10 games, with the other starting right backs in the campaign being Graham Alexander, Christian Dailly, Robbie Neilson and Graeme Murty, so Murty aside it's fair to say the cover was better than Paterson too.  At left back however, our starters were an utterly past it Gary Naysmith, Jay McEveley and Alexander. Robertson, Shinnie, Wallace, Whittaker and Tierney are all better options.

It can be difficult to compare the midfields as we were using a different system, but again look at some of the players who featured then. Lee McCulloch, 7 starts. Gary Teale, 2 starts. Nigel Quashie, 2 starts. Stephen Pearson, 2 starts. Scott Severin, 2 sub appearances. Those players mostly did a good job when asked - McCulloch was extremely effective out wide in the hoofball system, the highlight being the win over Ukraine, Pearson was outstanding off the bench in Paris - but none of those players would get in a squad now.

McCulloch and Teale wouldn't even be fringe players ahead of the likes of Russell and Phillips, never mind getting a game ahead of the likes of Snodgrass, Anya or Naismith. Quashie and Pearson wouldn't even get in a squad like the Italy friendly, never mind competing with the likes of Morrison or McArthur for competitive games. Scott Severin. Of the starters in that campaign, the deterioration of Darren Fletcher is obviously a massive blow, but everyone playing in the equivalent roles is an upgrade on Ferguson and Hartley. Let's not forget that we were using Gary Caldwell in holding midfield too.

Even up front, we had Miller doing an excellent job with McFadden producing some brilliant moments, but even there the relative lack of depth shows: Garry O'Connor, 1 start, 3 sub appearances. Craig Beattie, 3 sub appearances. More players who wouldn't get near a squad now as fringe players.

We have much greater strength in depth and have had progressively more in each campaign since - the problem is that along with those improved squads we've had worse managers.

[kenny131]

Our squad is old and the players only know failure, I can't see anything to give us hope our fortunes will change anytime soon. The manager is not showing us any enthusiasm about the future at all and it's clearly rubbing off on me.  

I would like to see a younger manager who had a good playing career take over and be giving free reign to shake up the the system from u16 all the way up. Basically start again. There is no point employing managers like strachan for a quick fix which is pissing into the wind as current generation are just not good enough.

[craigkillie]

I agree in general, but I disagree about McCulloch.  It's easy to forget that he was a very effective player back then, before he descended into UFC mode at Rangers.  Our current team is crying out for someone like the 2007 McCulloch, who has the physical presence to mix it in the attacking third.

[Gordopolis]

McManus was playing in a champions league Celtic side, winning games vs AC Milan etc, so I don't agree that the McManus of that campaign was inferior to Martin or Hanley

[haggisbeastie]

Barry Ferguson was, IMHO, a better player than any of our current midfielder.

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

McManus was playing in a champions league Celtic side, winning games vs AC Milan etc, so I don't agree that the McManus of that campaign was inferior to Martin or Hanley

So was Darren O'Dea.

[Gordopolis]

10 hours ago, craigkillie said:

So was Darren O'Dea.

McManus and Caldwell were undisputedly Celtic's two first choice centrebacks, O'Dea was bench backup.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/7019611.stm

McManus was fairly solid for a few years at that stage and offered quite a goal threat at set pieces.

Remember we're comparing him to Hanley and Martin (both decent but prone to error) - not Baresi and Cannavaro.

[Officer Barbrady]

Fucking hell. We're actually doing this, are we? 

 

In 2007/8, we not only had two Champions League sides with many Scottish players (the Scotland team contained more CL players than the England side that year) we also had the last non OF side in a Uefa Cup group, not one of whom were deemed good enough to get into Eck's team. It frankly is light years ahead of ANYTHING resembling Scottish football in it's present guise. For f**k's sake....Celtic defeated Man United (twice) and AC Milan, and got the better of Benfica using those players. Rangers defeated the reigning French and German champions, before getting to the Uefa Cup Final. Two years after putting Porto out of the CL on their own ground. 

 

What have any Scottish players achieved on ANY sort of level comparable to that? Perhaps those involved in Celtic's success in 2012/13, but clearly that was an absolute flash in the pan, given the shite state of affairs our whole game has with playing foreign opponents. 

 

The seismic change in sporting, cultural and learning attitudes have changed enormously in a very short time, and it feeds mediocrity. None of the above happened by fucking accident, sometimes in life things go right or wrong; but in that period, a lot of wrongs were righted, and people's pride in their fitba' was rewarded. 

[dogmc]

Fucking hell. We're actually doing this, are we? 

 

In 2007/8, we not only had two Champions League sides with many Scottish players (the Scotland team contained more CL players than the England side that year) we also had the last non OF side in a Uefa Cup group, not one of whom were deemed good enough to get into Eck's team. It frankly is light years ahead of ANYTHING resembling Scottish football in it's present guise. For f**k's sake....Celtic defeated Man United (twice) and AC Milan, and got the better of Benfica using those players. Rangers defeated the reigning French and German champions, before getting to the Uefa Cup Final. Two years after putting Porto out of the CL on their own ground. 

 

What have any Scottish players achieved on ANY sort of level comparable to that? Perhaps those involved in Celtic's success in 2012/13, but clearly that was an absolute flash in the pan, given the shite state of affairs our whole game has with playing foreign opponents. 

 

The seismic change in sporting, cultural and learning attitudes have changed enormously in a very short time, and it feeds mediocrity. None of the above happened by fucking accident, sometimes in life things go right or wrong; but in that period, a lot of wrongs were righted, and people's pride in their fitba' was rewarded. 

Yet look at 2008 qualifiers Scotland squad its man for man much worse than the group currently available to wgs.....we just have a much worse mgr right now

[Officer Barbrady]

Based upon what? In what sort of parallell universe can anything achieved by players ten years ago be of any possible comparison to today's, if by no other means than results, and success in competitions? 

 

If anything, the number of yo-yo players we have who filter around seemingly the same batch of clubs (WBA, Hull, Norwich etc) we have who persistently fail at the highest level available to them, has never been greater. The Paul Telfers, Scot Gemmils, the David Hopkins of Broon's era, weren't kept around beyond their purpose. Better players emerged. That the current lot are our only reps in any sort of respectable league, does not automatically equate them as 'good', far less better than anyone else. Neither does their transfer fees, nor wage packets. 

 

What accentuated a lot of Scottish international success was a strong Premier Division of our own. Of course, we don't have that; and only one thing will ever bring that back, unfortunately. Broon's successuve qualifications in the late 90s were in spite of Rangers' domination while failing in Europe; it's no coincidence that when they, Celtic, Aberdeen and Dundee Hibernian succeded in Europe, the national side benefitted enormously. We have been arserammed into having absolutely f**k all pride in our own environment, not least egged on by those c***s in charge who have unneccesarily tried to 'change everything'. 

 

Yes, the manager's a dick. But it's not all his fault. 

[Bobby Skidmarks]

I appreciate the positive spin you've decided to put on it.

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Fucking hell. We're actually doing this, are we? 

 

In 2007/8, we not only had two Champions League sides with many Scottish players (the Scotland team contained more CL players than the England side that year) we also had the last non OF side in a Uefa Cup group, not one of whom were deemed good enough to get into Eck's team. It frankly is light years ahead of ANYTHING resembling Scottish football in it's present guise. For f**k's sake....Celtic defeated Man United (twice) and AC Milan, and got the better of Benfica using those players. Rangers defeated the reigning French and German champions, before getting to the Uefa Cup Final. Two years after putting Porto out of the CL on their own ground. 

 

What have any Scottish players achieved on ANY sort of level comparable to that? Perhaps those involved in Celtic's success in 2012/13, but clearly that was an absolute flash in the pan, given the shite state of affairs our whole game has with playing foreign opponents. 

 

The seismic change in sporting, cultural and learning attitudes have changed enormously in a very short time, and it feeds mediocrity. None of the above happened by fucking accident, sometimes in life things go right or wrong; but in that period, a lot of wrongs were righted, and people's pride in their fitba' was rewarded. 

That would all add up to a fantastic point if we were talking about the health of Scottish club football now compared to 2007. As we're talking about the national team, it means bugger all.

[Officer Barbrady]

Horseshit. You're trying to tell me that players who, by and large achieved the same results (ie punching above their weight once in a while) with both their club sides and Scotland, are lesser players than those nowadays who can barely stay in the league.

 

The 'past it' Gary Naysmith, for example, played along with Weir and McFadden in a fairly similarly placed Everton side to where they have ended up in recent times under Martinez. How the f**k are any of the other left backs available today in any way 'better' options, when they can't stay in the same league for more than a season if they even get the nod? 

 

The fact so many of our players have little or no serious European club experience is exactly in sync with how poor they are as a team with Scotland, and entirely relevant when dismissing those who comparitively, kept us competitive in qualifying groups, with the exception of 2006 WC. 

 

The players are wholly at fault in this instance, because they have become automatic selections based on a great delusion that they deserve their place just because of where they play. Few have genuinely earned their spot, and this shows in how shite they play and look for Scotland compared to their clubs. That is a massive, relevant difference to the players you dismissed, who mostly could never be accused of not giving 100%.

[TheScarf]

8 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

In 2007/8, we not only had two Champions League sides with many Scottish players (the Scotland team contained more CL players than the England side that year) we also had the last non OF side in a Uefa Cup group, not one of whom were deemed good enough to get into Eck's team. It frankly is light years ahead of ANYTHING resembling Scottish football in it's present guise. For f**k's sake....Celtic defeated Man United (twice) and AC Milan, and got the better of Benfica using those players. Rangers defeated the reigning French and German champions, before getting to the Uefa Cup Final. Two years after putting Porto out of the CL on their own ground. 

. 

It's worth remembering 2005-2010 was the height of Rangers being cheats, and were able to pay for better players by the illegal use of EBTs.

[Officer Barbrady]

And Scotland didn't benefit at all out of this, did they?? The likes of Hutton, Ferguson, McCulloch, Miller and Boyd would have been pretty big gaps to fill otherwise. 

[1320Lichtie]

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Barbrady here..

[TheScarf]

44 minutes ago, Officer Barbrady said:

And Scotland didn't benefit at all out of this, did they?? The likes of Hutton, Ferguson, McCulloch, Miller and Boyd would have been pretty big gaps to fill otherwise. 

No I'm agreeing with you, these guys still did the job for Scotland, just when you mentioned Rangers doing well in Europe.

[Officer Barbrady]

The two aren't completely unlinked though, however we dress it up. Fwiw, you are of course correct.....but McLeish, more so than Wattie, demonstrated his ability to get the best out of his teams, it's just a fact that Rangers happened to be the club he succeeded with at that level.

 

Anyway, the EBTs related to Advocaat's period and Smith's second stint....during which RealGers didn't make it out a group. Subjective, yes. But i'm sure if Rangers succeeded in the CL's embryonic years, more than once, the likes of Alec Cleland, Steven Wright and Charlie Miller might have had a chance of getting in the Scotland team. They didn't, because they were gant. That unfortunately isn't a barrier to getting in our fucking team these days, which is the point of the argument!

[Dunning1874]

4 hours ago, Officer Barbrady said:

Horseshit. You're trying to tell me that players who, by and large achieved the same results (ie punching above their weight once in a while) with both their club sides and Scotland, are lesser players than those nowadays who can barely stay in the league.

 

The 'past it' Gary Naysmith, for example, played along with Weir and McFadden in a fairly similarly placed Everton side to where they have ended up in recent times under Martinez. How the f**k are any of the other left backs available today in any way 'better' options, when they can't stay in the same league for more than a season if they even get the nod? 

 

The fact so many of our players have little or no serious European club experience is exactly in sync with how poor they are as a team with Scotland, and entirely relevant when dismissing those who comparitively, kept us competitive in qualifying groups, with the exception of 2006 WC. 

 

The players are wholly at fault in this instance, because they have become automatic selections based on a great delusion that they deserve their place just because of where they play. Few have genuinely earned their spot, and this shows in how shite they play and look for Scotland compared to their clubs. That is a massive, relevant difference to the players you dismissed, who mostly could never be accused of not giving 100%.

 

Gary Naysmith only managed 10 starts for Everton in the 2006-07 season, before being sold to Sheffield United in the summer of 2007. Despite being a regular for Sheffield United in 2007-08, he couldn't get in the squad ahead of Graham Alexander or Jay McEveley. Because he was past it.

I agree that it was great for Scottish football to have our clubs doing so well in Europe, particularly with Scots featuring so prominently in these teams, but simply saying that those Scottish players went on a great European run and therefore they're better than all Scottish players who haven't regardless of circumstance is exactly as stupid as saying all Scottish players who play in the EPL are automatically better than those don't. That's what you're doing here.

Yes, moving to Crystal Palace has meant that James McArthur has no European experience at all, but would he automatically be a better player if he played for Celtic and had the experience of one great European run? Scott Brown has more European experience and more trophies than McArthur will ever have, but McArthur is undoubtedly the better player. It's far too simplistic to say that because a player has been a club side achieving great things they're automatically better than a player who isn't - Brown and Hartley were central to the successes of that Celtic side and got the praise and recognition as a result, it doesn't mean Mark Wilson's brilliant by association and should have been picked for Scotland ahead of better players who achieved less.

[Gordopolis]

1 hour ago, Dunning1874 said:

 

Scott Brown has more European experience and more trophies than McArthur will ever have, but McArthur is undoubtedly the better player. 

Undoubtedly? Maybe now with Brown's legs going McArthur is a better option. But with both in their pomp, Brown offers more IMO.