Rhodeswatch

[kenny131]

14 hours ago, forameus said:

I think we should stop thinking about one up front too, because it's too often a stick for simple people to beat the team with.  Whenever one striker is named on a teamsheet and put up in a vague formation on Sky Sports, it's always "GET TWO UP FRUNT" or similar mumblings, when there's so much more to a system than how it is laid out.  Not directing that at you by the way, because I pretty much agree with you in personnel you've chosen, particularly the bolded bit.  That can still be a 4-2-3-1, it's all about how they've been instructed to play.  Just like you can play a 4-2-3-1 with Snodgrass and have it more like a 4-5-1.  Personally I'd just cut our losses and try and play Burke as the central forward.  He's not going to track back, and he's going to want to get his head down and run like a dog down the park.  f**k it, let him.  Have him stretching the game and see what he can do while more disciplined players play behind him.  I'd have Fletcher there to see what he can do with players around him, taking the ball and trying to find a player like Burke who can run at defenders.  Then I'd have Griffiths as a second option for when that plan doesn't work.  I personally wouldn't have Rhodes, but it's borderline, and like I say it's hard to get excited about who gets the "probably-going-to-sit-on-the-bench" award.  

The stuff about being at our level isn't as damning as it maybe sounds.  For me in international football there's a top tier, a bottom tier, and then one massive middle part with a whole lot of nations swimming around.  Over-simplifying it, but there are a lot of nations out there who could start a campaign and finish 2nd, or 5th.  It's likely always going to be like that.  A poor manager can take us to the lower end (Levein and current era Strachan) and a better one can take us to the upper end (early era Strachan et al).  Only problem is, as has shown with Strachan, it doesn't take a lot to switch between those two phases, and we could well end up having one who never makes it out of first gear.  Doesn't help that we get absolutely horror shows from the players at times where they can take equal blame - Georgia in particular.  

We can definitely do better, just like we can do worse.  We'll get the usual bounce in momentum when Strachan eventually goes, so let's just hope that comes at a more useful time than it did when he was originally appointed.

I hear ya ...1 up front is what we do but it simply is not working....rather than just shoot down anyone who posts let's try 2 up top. Only a fucking idiot would keep doing the same thing time after time and watch it fail don't you think.

 

[RandomGuy.]

So exact same as Chris Martin then....

No. Martin is far superior at holding the ball up, he hasn't been able to transition that club form to international level yet, but week in, week out, at the same level, he was outperforming Rhodes last season in that regard.

[NathanQP]

Rhodes is basically a better version of Kris Boyd

[kenny131]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

No. Martin is far superior at holding the ball up, he hasn't been able to transition that club form to international level yet, but week in, week out, at the same level, he was outperforming Rhodes last season in that regard.

 

Nah  he is just pure shite

[Gordopolis]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

No. Martin is far superior at holding the ball up, he hasn't been able to transition that club form to international level yet, but week in, week out, at the same level, he was outperforming Rhodes last season in that regard.

 

Hard to quantify hold-up success (don't know if pro-zone or whatever captures that kind of stat) but I could buy that. 

[dogmc]

No. Martin is far superior at holding the ball up, he hasn't been able to transition that club form to international level yet, but week in, week out, at the same level, he was outperforming Rhodes last season in that regard.

Aye that'll be why the might of Lithuania was able to brush him off the ball with total ease.

[forameus]

1 hour ago, kenny131 said:

I hear ya ...1 up front is what we do but it simply is not working....rather than just shoot down anyone who posts let's try 2 up top. Only a fucking idiot would keep doing the same thing time after time and watch it fail don't you think.

 

We're not going to "go two up top", nor should we.  It's the kind of lazy thinking from people who think that two strikers is going to automatically mean you're more attacking and you'll score more goals.

That doesn't mean we don't change things, we just tweak what we have.  It would be mental to sacrifice a body from either defence or midfield just so we can put another guy up top.  We can't even get enough people up to support and provide chances for one striker, how are we going to fare when we have one less player in midfield and the ones left behind are frantically retreating to cover that ground?  As I've said before, the solution is to rethink the one striker and who plays behind him, and find a way so that the more attacking midfielders can get closer to support without leaving our defenders hopelessly exposed.  It's not 4-4-2, and I have my doubts about 3-5-2.

[Gordopolis]

16 hours ago, forameus said:

I think we should stop thinking about one up front too, because it's too often a stick for simple people to beat the team with.  Whenever one striker is named on a teamsheet and put up in a vague formation on Sky Sports, it's always "GET TWO UP FRUNT" or similar mumblings, when there's so much more to a system than how it is laid out.  Not directing that at you by the way, because I pretty much agree with you in personnel you've chosen, particularly the bolded bit.  That can still be a 4-2-3-1, it's all about how they've been instructed to play.  Just like you can play a 4-2-3-1 with Snodgrass and have it more like a 4-5-1.  Personally I'd just cut our losses and try and play Burke as the central forward.  He's not going to track back, and he's going to want to get his head down and run like a dog down the park.  f**k it, let him.  Have him stretching the game and see what he can do while more disciplined players play behind him.  I'd have Fletcher there to see what he can do with players around him, taking the ball and trying to find a player like Burke who can run at defenders.  Then I'd have Griffiths as a second option for when that plan doesn't work.  I personally wouldn't have Rhodes, but it's borderline, and like I say it's hard to get excited about who gets the "probably-going-to-sit-on-the-bench" award.  

The stuff about being at our level isn't as damning as it maybe sounds.  For me in international football there's a top tier, a bottom tier, and then one massive middle part with a whole lot of nations swimming around.  Over-simplifying it, but there are a lot of nations out there who could start a campaign and finish 2nd, or 5th.  It's likely always going to be like that.  A poor manager can take us to the lower end (Levein and current era Strachan) and a better one can take us to the upper end (early era Strachan et al).  Only problem is, as has shown with Strachan, it doesn't take a lot to switch between those two phases, and we could well end up having one who never makes it out of first gear.  Doesn't help that we get absolutely horror shows from the players at times where they can take equal blame - Georgia in particular.  

We can definitely do better, just like we can do worse.  We'll get the usual bounce in momentum when Strachan eventually goes, so let's just hope that comes at a more useful time than it did when he was originally appointed.

This might be the most pragmatic choice. Fletcher is in decline IMO, Naismith too, Martin and Griffiths just don't look cut out for international level (as first picks at least), Rhodes' all-round game is questionable and he doesn't look like being able to blow away those doubts. Burke is playing (albeit sparingly) in the Bundesliga centrally and wide, and would be a daunting prospect for opposition defences to handle in terms of his physique and blistering pace - he's probably the closest thing to a class, on-the-up, international level forward we have (and I know how desperate/straw-clutchy that sounds). More, we wouldn't necessarily miss him on the wings as we have ample options to fill the 3 that would sit in behind him (Phillips, Snodgrass, Fraser, Forrest, Anya etc).

I suppose the question is: how is his hold up play and his finishing?

Or, more pertinently: will Strachan even f*cking pick him?

[forameus]

Just now, Gordopolis said:

This might be the most pragmatic choice. Fletcher is in decline IMO, Naismith too, Martin and Griffiths just don't look cut out for international level (as first picks at least), Rhodes' all-round game is questionable and he doesn't look like being able to blow away those doubts. Burke is playing (albeit sparingly) in the Bundesliga centrally and wide, and would be a daunting prospect for opposition defences to handle in terms of his physique and blistering pace - he's probably the closest thing to a class international level forward we have (and I know how desperate/straw-clutchy that sounds). More, we have ample options to fill the 3 that would sit in behind him (Phillips, Snodgrass, Fraser, Forrest, Anya etc).

I suppose the question is: how is his hold up play and his finishing?

I'd agree with the latter three, perhaps with Fletcher, but I think he could still do a lot of good as long as we keep getting players around him.  He's not the striker who is going to take the ball in and create something out of nothing.  He'll take it in, hold it up, but he needs someone running off him.  If we're not going to give him that, then we'll just have another Kenny Miller who'll turn up and look largely unimpressive until he becomes a hate figure.

At least with Burke, we could punt it up and see him run onto the ball.  We wouldn't necessarily need to have someone up there getting around him,  because he'd likely not pass to them anyway.  Or put Fletcher up top, Burke behind and switch them round during the game.  Fletcher largely staying in position and Burke getting beyond.

[RandomGuy.]

Aye that'll be why the might of Lithuania was able to brush him off the ball with total ease.

Well yeah, he hasn't been able to match it for Scotland, which is what I said.

I don't like Martin, I don't think he suits us, but in a choice between him and Rhodes, I can absolutely see why Strachan goes for Martin

[Disco30]

Personally think Rhodes should move back down a league start putting the ball in the back of the net and get some confidence back. His finishing was his best asset but you don't do much of that sitting on the bench or in the stand. Get back playing  and get up to speed maybe then he will be in the international picture.

[kenny131]

12 hours ago, forameus said:

We're not going to "go two up top", nor should we.  It's the kind of lazy thinking from people who think that two strikers is going to automatically mean you're more attacking and you'll score more goals.

That doesn't mean we don't change things, we just tweak what we have.  It would be mental to sacrifice a body from either defence or midfield just so we can put another guy up top.  We can't even get enough people up to support and provide chances for one striker, how are we going to fare when we have one less player in midfield and the ones left behind are frantically retreating to cover that ground?  As I've said before, the solution is to rethink the one striker and who plays behind him, and find a way so that the more attacking midfielders can get closer to support without leaving our defenders hopelessly exposed.  It's not 4-4-2, and I have my doubts about 3-5-2.

No its just different from the 1 up top we play that doesn't get us results, I play none up front if it got us results....the fact is your arguing that 1 up front is the way we should play  even though it gets totally no where.  So what is your point that your trying to put across.....Let's keep it the way it is ffs 

[kenny131]

8 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Well yeah, he hasn't been able to match it for Scotland, which is what I said.

I don't like Martin, I don't think he suits us, but in a choice between him and Rhodes, I can absolutely see why Strachan goes for Martin

 

I don't see it.....he falls over with slightest touch...he can't move...he can't header he has no touch and is to slow to get into finishing positions. I just can't see at all what he brings

[RandomGuy.]

I don't see it.....he falls over with slightest touch...he can't move...he can't header he has no touch and is to slow to get into finishing positions. I just can't see at all what he brings

Well yeah, you've made this exact point hundreds of times over the past year. We all know how blinkered you are.

[kenny131]

On 11/01/2017 at 17:05, dogmc said:

Fwiw the sfa should delegate this to a recruitment firm specialising in this field with a mandate to look far and wide....more likely it will be the cheapest candidate who doesn't need compo paid for.....whats Malky Mckay up to nowadays??

All the were hiring firms pish is just a smoke screen to hide their filthy hands dipping the till. SFA is just a small scale FIFA corrupt as feck

[Pearbuyerbell]

Tony Watt is the kind of player that fits the Scotland system well.  He's looked good when he's played for Scotland - but you probably couldn't justify his squad selection currently given his lack of game time for mediocre teams.   

Re:  Chris Martin  -  He played well in his first game at Craven Cottage v Nigeria.   He's been horrible ever since. 

[Rabinho]

Tony Watt is the kind of player that fits the Scotland system well.  He's looked good when he's played for Scotland - but you probably couldn't justify his squad selection currently given his lack of game time for mediocre teams.   

Re:  Chris Martin  -  He played well in his first game at Craven Cottage v Nigeria.   He's been horrible ever since. 

Watt's chances must be running out now.
I thought he looked good in his Scotland debut last year and had high hopes.
I thought Hearts was a great move for both parties but it's just not happened for reasons I'm sure Hearts fans will know better than me.
Even if he'd tucked 5 or 6 goals by now he could've been breaking back into the national team.
I thought Martin looked ok against Malta but so did everyone and they've all been gash since.

[AMMjag]

Watt's a complete waster.

[Gordopolis]

Odds tumbled today - 1/5 to go to Villa

[paul-r-cfc]

Watt's a complete waster.

Yup, his return to Scotland was surely a last chance to prove he was up to it. Bombing will surely put the notion to rest that he's ever going to bother the first team

Unfortunate as the ability is their but clearly he's a bit of an arse