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DeeTillEhDeh

RISE - The "Scottish Syriza"

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You should be able to. You fucked off like a girl as well.

Mmmmm... no.

I choose when I wish to post and when I don't. As I'm an adult.

What I don't do is... become such a rage-filled shambolic mess that I have to beg the moderators of a football forum on the internet to prevent me from being able to log into their site, as I'm such an incohent shambles that I can't trust myself to click a little x in the top right hand corner.

Truly the most embarrassing thing ever on this site. Worse even than the adults who foam at the mouth about WWE wrestling and the goons who have alias chats with each other.

The minteriest minter of all time. Congratulations. :)

Edited by H_B

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Mmmmm... no.

I choose when I wish to post and when I don't. As I'm an adult.

What I don't do is... become such a rage-filled shambolic mess that I have to beg the moderators of a football forum on the internet to prevent me from being able to log into their site, as I'm such an incohent shambles that I can't trust myself to click a little x in the top right hand corner.

Truly the most embarrassing thing ever on this site. Worse even than the adults who foam at the mouth about WWE wrestling and the goons who have alias chats with each other.

The minteriest minter of all time. Congratulations. :)

^^^ utterly beeling

:lol:

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Mmm hmmm...

You really are utterly shamefaced about that incident aren't you? What were you thinking? How can you lack self-control to the extent that you need to be prevented from accessing a football website? :unsure2:

It really is a puzzler. Quite concerning too.

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Mmm hmmm...

You really are utterly shamefaced about that incident aren't you? What were you thinking? How can you lack self-control to the extent that you need to be prevented from accessing a football website? :unsure2:

It really is a puzzler. Quite concerning too.

You're certainly more pre-occupied with it than I am.

And you're about 600% more raging as well.

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If this mob can snap up the Fuzzy Afro type ragers that the media desparately try to characterise all SNP voters as like, that would be just swell. They can get those 100 votes per constituency or whatever and The Only Show In Town can continute breaking the BBC's infographics on election night and not have to worry about The Daily Mail and Scotsman's sit about on Twitter department.

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If this mob can snap up the Fuzzy Afro type ragers that the media desparately try to characterise all SNP voters as like, that would be just swell. They can get those 100 votes per constituency or whatever and The Only Show In Town can continute breaking the BBC's infographics on election night and not have to worry about The Daily Mail and Scotsman's sit about on Twitter department.

Those raging cybernats are keeping legions of journalists in jobs, how dare you.

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I'm in, can't see there being many other takers on here though mate!

Aye there "seething" "mewling" "scrambling for relevance" "word salad" merchants. Im an inclusive guy though so there all invited.

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Probably not once people read far enough into it to realise that what's left of the SSP is involved.

They're currently so far round the U-bend they make the LibDems look healthy.

I think that a catch - all left - wing party is a good idea and is needed. Unfortunately the SSP carry a lot of problems and baggage that are still ongoing. There's other parties that aren't involved that arguably should be such as TUSC, CP etc.

Given Syriza have basically achieved diddlysquat in terms of what they set out to do, I'd say they are about a year too late with this, but they do have a possible opening as a way for left-leaning SNP voters to give Labour a kicking on the regional list if a wipeout looks on the cards at the constituency level.

I think they're a year too late as well to make any impact at 2016. It was a mistake on their part to not come together last year. They've effectively been set up to take left - wing votes from the SNP. If they force the SNP further left though that can only be a good thing.

Surely the far left parties are aware they'd do better in an independent Scotland? A bit of RealPolitik from them and not fielding candidates and instead urging folk to vote SNP/Greens until independence is achieved would be better for them in the long run?

They would but the SNP currently isn't left or radical enough and so by standing, it forces them to move further left.

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Don't really understand why this is needed in any way. The SNP are not exactly far left but everyone knows they have had an influx of new members likely to take the party in a new direction, most of the new mps are more left wing than their predecessors and they are under pressure to prove their left wing credentials in the next parliament. Why risk splitting the indy vote to achieve absolutely nothing when we don't even know what kind of policies the SNP are likely to produce yet?

Plus with anything like this it won't be long til we see the Socialism independence Respect and environmentalist party.

The SNP are a capitalist neo-liberal party. Being the anti austerity voice in Westminster when the other 3 parties are pro-austerity is not difficult.

The Holyrood election allows for a broad spectrum of indy parties.

The independence movement is better served by having 70 SNP, 10 Green and 5 RISE than it is served by 85 SNP MSPs. They need pro indy opposition.

RISE can take MSPs on the list in the Central Belt, Glasgow in particular. There are some really good candidates and the parliament would benefit form hearing their voice.

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There is no chance theyll take any list seats anywhere.

Not so sure about that, as RISE will draw on the experience of the RIC, who were very good at canvassing and networking during the referendum, they should be able to drum up some support that way.

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That's plenty.

If you take the position that the status quo (a market-driven economy with certain huge state institutions like the NHS, DWP) is basically social democracy and that the neoliberals are looking to dismantle that (which is fair enough) then yes, an SNP that simply doesn't want to privatise what's left of the state is social-democratic. But that's not a particularly popular position. Most people would look at the stated platforms of the Labour Party and the SNP and not see a fantastic degree of difference between them (Trident, yes, but that's not specifically "neoliberal"; university fees, yes, but the SNP aren't proposing reintroducing grants instead of student loans or anything either). The SNP are certainly not proposing a significant campaign of (re)nationalising industry, or moving away from a market-based economy, or even significant changes to taxation even though the current level is historically extremely low. Should Corbyn get in, the stated aims of the Labour Party will most certainly lie at least somewhat to the left of where the SNP currently are. It's not clear what purpose there is to denying this.

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If you take the position that the status quo (a market-driven economy with certain huge state institutions like the NHS, DWP) is basically social democracy and that the neoliberals are looking to dismantle that (which is fair enough) then yes, an SNP that simply doesn't want to privatise what's left of the state is social-democratic. But that's not a particularly popular position. Most people would look at the stated platforms of the Labour Party and the SNP and not see a fantastic degree of difference between them (Trident, yes, but that's not specifically "neoliberal"; university fees, yes, but the SNP aren't proposing reintroducing grants instead of student loans or anything either). The SNP are certainly not proposing a significant campaign of (re)nationalising industry, or moving away from a market-based economy, or even significant changes to taxation even though the current level is historically extremely low. Should Corbyn get in, the stated aims of the Labour Party will most certainly lie at least somewhat to the left of where the SNP currently are. It's not clear what purpose there is to denying this.

Whilst all that may have merit, there is no way you can compare the SNP with neo-liberals to the right of the Labour party.

And that's not me being a fanboy, that's just fact.

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Whilst all that may have merit, there is no way you can compare the SNP with neo-liberals to the right of the Labour party.

That wasn't what was being asserted. The Labour Party (not Liz Kendall, at least so long as she isn't in charge of it) has a platform stating its positions. You would describe these as capitalist and neoliberal. The SNP (not random members of the public who voted Yes, at least so long as they aren't in charge of it) also has a platform stating its positions. The two overlap to a very significant degree, to the extent that a good proportion of Scotland felt relatively comfortable with both until very recently. It's therefore difficult to argue that the SNP aren't, in terms of their stated platform, also capitalist and neoliberal.

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I might swing them a vote actually

Hard to figure out where my vote is best used in Edinburgh to be honest. Obviously SNP in the constituency sheet but on the Lothians list its pretty clear that the SNP won't win a seat (because they'll win all the constituencies) and the Greens will win their usual seat here, last time the other seats were 3 Labour, 2 Tory, 1 Margo.

Lib Dems probably favourites to win Margo's seat so I might swing this lot a vote rather than the busted flush :lol:

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That wasn't what was being asserted. The Labour Party (not Liz Kendall, at least so long as she isn't in charge of it) has a platform stating its positions. You would describe these as capitalist and neoliberal. The SNP (not random members of the public who voted Yes, at least so long as they aren't in charge of it) also has a platform stating its positions. The two overlap to a very significant degree, to the extent that a good proportion of Scotland felt relatively comfortable with both until very recently. It's therefore difficult to argue that the SNP aren't, in terms of their stated platform, also capitalist and neoliberal.

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern day sizeable, viable political party that doesn't at least dabble in capitalism.

Neo liberalism? Not so much, in my opinion. Whilst, yes, there are aspects of SNP policy that could be described as neo liberal, the platform the party stands on, as a whole, I don't think is neo liberal. They are against fiscal austerity, against reducing government spending as a way of "balancing the books" and against blanket privatisation. Just my opinion.

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I think you'd be hard pressed to find a modern day sizeable, viable political party that doesn't at least dabble in capitalism.

So why deny it?

Neo liberalism? Not so much, in my opinion. Whilst, yes, there are aspects of SNP policy that could be described as neo liberal, the platform the party stands on, as a whole, I don't think is neo liberal. They are against fiscal austerity, against reducing government spending as a way of "balancing the books" and against blanket privatisation. Just my opinion.

And yet they're not actually in favour, in any explicit manner, of restoring to the state any of those entities that Thatcher and her followers removed from it, nor of anything more than the most modest increases in spending beyond the current level. Which as I say is fine if you look at the country after 35 years of neoliberal experimentation and say "this is social democracy, but any more and it would be neoliberalism", but that's not a commonplace assertion.

It is therefore vitally important that there are at least some voices in the chamber who disagree with the status quo in a broader manner. Some voices who would directly advocate returning industry to the state, to significantly increasing taxation on the rich and on industry, to seriously planning for a post-fossil-fuel energy model. Otherwise this role falls to SNP rebels, and the SNP aren't awfully given to rebellion of late.

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Think it's 'healthy' of these guys get a few seats. No more. Would never vote for them either.

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So why deny it?

And yet they're not actually in favour, in any explicit manner, of restoring to the state any of those entities that Thatcher and her followers removed from it, nor of anything more than the most modest increases in spending beyond the current level. Which as I say is fine if you look at the country after 35 years of neoliberal experimentation and say "this is social democracy, but any more and it would be neoliberalism", but that's not a commonplace assertion.

It is therefore vitally important that there are at least some voices in the chamber who disagree with the status quo in a broader manner. Some voices who would directly advocate returning industry to the state, to significantly increasing taxation on the rich and on industry, to seriously planning for a post-fossil-fuel energy model. Otherwise this role falls to SNP rebels, and the SNP aren't awfully given to rebellion of late.

Whilst I don't necessarily 100% agree with all you say, I concede all the points you make, specifically around state ownership.

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