When will indyref2 happen?

[NotThePars]

Good post, and I agree with most of it apart from this one. If we delay for "quite a few years" after it's obvious that leaving the EU was/is going to be an utter f**k up there will be time to spin "Look, the 30 new lorry lanes to Dover are almost complete, and "We've got a trade deal with America!",  and "we can't be blackmailed by Ireland" etc. I agree we should wait till we know the final settlement, but I would call one soon after. Abandoning a sinking sink doesn't sit well with people, and there's a real chance that Europe will be disintegrating if we leave it too long. It would be nice for Scotland to join in time to shore up  and help save what we played a big role in starting in Europe, the Enlightenment .

The EU is rotten. If we go independent and rejoin then I would hope we would play a role in reforming the institution into something to be proud of. Not allowing thousands to drown in the Med would be the minimum I’d expect us to campaign against.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

 

The EU is rotten. If we go independent and rejoin then I would hope we would play a role in reforming the institution into something to be proud of. Not allowing thousands to drown in the Med would be the minimum I’d expect us to campaign against.

 

We'd have to start welcoming a few more refugees in then instead of turning Italy into Mussolini.2, and encouraging Poland, Hungary and  Czechoslovakia that liberal social democratic values are dead and the EU is past its sell by date. Like the UN, the EU can only do what its members allow it to do, and we are and have been abdicating any responsibility for the peace and welfare of the continent for decades, the selfish narrow minded short sighted c***s that we were and are. Meanwhile Corbyn has a grand vision for us all but he can't remember where he left it.

P.S. The far left always bang on about how Greece were treated after their rulers shafted the rest of EU citizens for decades, but never mention the political and judicial human rights achieved across the continent in countries that could easily gone banana or Belarus.

Edited May 21, 2018 by welshbairn

[Mastermind]

Look just because I don’t attack no voters with the same vitriol you do doesnt mean i’m any bit less supportive of Scottish Independence. If we have a ref next year so be it, I just think we’ll get pumped, its not that I don’t believe Scotland couldn’t be a successful (infact far more than as part of the UK) state, I just think we’re a nation of shitebags and just don’t see us winning it.

Or a nation of sensible people that thought about it logically rather than bitter swivel-eyed Nats who want independence no matter the cost. So you’re right, you would get pumped again.

[Peppino Impastato]

2 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Look just because I don’t attack no voters with the same vitriol you do doesnt mean i’m any bit less supportive of Scottish Independence. If we have a ref next year so be it, I just think we’ll get pumped, its not that I don’t believe Scotland couldn’t be a successful (infact far more than as part of the UK) state, I just think we’re a nation of shitebags and just don’t see us winning it.

Well what does it fkn matter then?  We'll get pumped any time if that's true.  We have a mandate now and may never get another and Brexit creates the perfect storm.  There is no later, we won't get another chance, you seem to be struggling to grasp this.  It will be march and I think we'll win.

[Peppino Impastato]

22 minutes ago, Mastermind said:

 

Or a nation of sensible people that thought about it logically rather than bitter swivel-eyed Nats who want independence no matter the cost. So you’re right, you would get pumped again.

 

Aye logically there are lots of small independent countries all around us who are happier healthier and wealthier than the UK, and without the resources Scotland has.

[Alan Stubbs]

2 hours ago, Peppino Impastato said:

What's the harm then?  Might as well have a vote.

People who say I want independence but don't have a vote now are officially the stupidest people on the planet.  If you don't have it now you will be waiting at least twenty or thirty years for another chance.  

Holyrood was specifically designed to prevent majorities to prevent independence.  You may never see another one.  Ever.  The unionist parties are going to form a unionist alliance to try to oust the SNP and even if they don't succeed the SNP will not have the votes to get it through holyrood. 

It's now or never, with nothing to lose.  A free hit.  You'd be mad not to give it a go.

I'm not sure if it's stupidity, or more just a case of being a collection of absolute sadcunts who are incapable of getting on with their lives (nothing to lose eh), but the folk constantly screaming for another vote haven't shown themselves to be the most politically astute so far.  Seems like a lot of the same people who were absolutely certain that it would be a Yes vote last time and definitely the same people whose demands for a referendum have already backfired once since Brexit. 

As someone who still wants Independence, even if it doesn't happen in the next five minutes, I disagree that there is 'nothing to lose'. As far as I can tell, there are two ways that overall defeat can happen - the disappearance of a pro-Independence political force in Holyrood or a second referendum failing. People like yourself seem determined to make both happen. 

I'd throw in a third threat and that is a rolling back of devolution itself. If the SNP show themselves to be more representative of their own hardcore base than of Scotland as a whole, this one will become particularly serious. I'm sure most of them are well meaning but for my money, the window sticker simpletons are as big a threat to Independence as any staunch w****r out there. They've arguably already fucked up the opportunity for us to really capitalise on Brexit and if the SNP listens to them too much in the next few years, they might end up killing the whole thing off.   

[Highland Capital]

A referendum in March? It almost seems like some people in the Yes movement are hellbent on losing this.

[Jmothecat2]

The traffic cameras were used, and estimated 93,000 + Take off your butchers apron lenses Dave, you'll maybe see the light then

Traffic cameras were used to see how many people were on the march, at the time? Who released those figures? Not trying to doubt the numbers or anything, I'm genuinely curious.

[Colkitto]

 

 

 

 

 

[Antlion]

7 hours ago, Mastermind said:

 

Or a nation of sensible people that thought about it logically rather than bitter swivel-eyed Nats who want independence no matter the cost. So you’re right, you would get pumped again.

 

So the UK is a nation of “bitter swivel-eyed Nats who want independence no matter the cost”? Well, they’ve got it - Brexit is happening. Why do you want Scotland to remain shackled to such a nation?

[HTG]

2 minutes ago, Antlion said:

So the UK is a nation of “bitter swivel-eyed Nats who want independence no matter the cost”? Well, they’ve got it - Brexit is happening. Why do you want Scotland to remain shackled to such a nation?

Because he's an arsehole. I'm not sure there is any mileage in trying to get any sense out of him.  Ivo's post was really well put. I don't agree with all of it but it was well argued and he may be right about not calling an early referendum. I still think we should.  Off to swivel my eyes for a while. 

[git-intae-thum]

It will pile more pressure on May who really does not want to give consent for an independence referendum.

"Now is not the time..." and all that.

[John Lambies Doos]

I'm not sure if it's stupidity, or more just a case of being a collection of absolute sadcunts who are incapable of getting on with their lives (nothing to lose eh), but the folk constantly screaming for another vote haven't shown themselves to be the most politically astute so far.  Seems like a lot of the same people who were absolutely certain that it would be a Yes vote last time and definitely the same people whose demands for a referendum have already backfired once since Brexit. 
As someone who still wants Independence, even if it doesn't happen in the next five minutes, I disagree that there is 'nothing to lose'. As far as I can tell, there are two ways that overall defeat can happen - the disappearance of a pro-Independence political force in Holyrood or a second referendum failing. People like yourself seem determined to make both happen. 
I'd throw in a third threat and that is a rolling back of devolution itself. If the SNP show themselves to be more representative of their own hardcore base than of Scotland as a whole, this one will become particularly serious. I'm sure most of them are well meaning but for my money, the window sticker simpletons are as big a threat to Independence as any staunch w****r out there. They've arguably already fucked up the opportunity for us to really capitalise on Brexit and if the SNP listens to them too much in the next few years, they might end up killing the whole thing off.   

What a load of shite. If we don't take this opportunity now we risk being more isolated, more dependent (perceived) and less in control. Say we lose - I think we will win, the ship sails for a decade... but that's what we are currently looking at anyway.
Next March... With only a 6 month notice roll in would be ideal.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

What's the harm then?  Might as well have a vote.
People who say I want independence but don't have a vote now are officially the stupidest people on the planet.  If you don't have it now you will be waiting at least twenty or thirty years for another chance.  
Holyrood was specifically designed to prevent majorities to prevent independence.  You may never see another one.  Ever.  The unionist parties are going to form a unionist alliance to try to oust the SNP and even if they don't succeed the SNP will not have the votes to get it through holyrood. 
It's now or never, with nothing to lose.  A free hit.  You'd be mad not to give it a go.

Well the harm is that it could irreparably damage the indy cause forever if we get beat a second time.
We have everything to lose and it looks very likely that we will definitely lose as the yes campaign hasnt learned the lessons from 2014. Its still populated by absolute whompercunts like Cat Boyd and ‘radical independence’ who put potential centrist yes voters off with their actions, truth be told if i thought an independent Scotland would look like the RI guys vision for it i’d probably vote against. What we need is for the loonies to take a back seat in this campaign if it’s to happen.
We would need significant defections from the Labour party for this to be a win and would need to ensure that Europeans living in Scotland got the vote. That’s the only way we win.
Given the financial implications and cost of another indy ref its anything but a free hit.

[Ivo den Bieman]

^^ centrist Dad found

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

^^ centrist Dad found

I have left wing views on some things like health care, education, foreign military intervention etc and right of centre views on crime and punishment and common market membership.

I just dont see how Elaine C Smith, Cat Boyd telling us how all property is theft , some hummus eating art students doing sketches of lady gaga songs and a bunch of folks who think Braveheart is real will win over the middle ground that is key for a second vote, if that makes me a ‘yer da’ then so be it.

The winning argument has to be sound in every way for it to stand up to scrutiny. Some of the grass roots campaigning in the last ref was cringey and actually put many voters off, the difficulty is that so many on the yes side are so blinded by this that they can’t accept it.

Get the economic argument right and we have a good chance, but rely on the romanticism like last time we’ve no chance.

[John Lambies Doos]

Taken to oblivion by Bo Jo and Rees Mogg, or give it another shot.. 5 yrs after first time..
Mmmmmm

[Lurkst]

55 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Say we lose - I think we will win, the ship sails for a decade... 

 

More like decades.

 

[DrewDon]

34 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I have left wing views on some things like health care, education, foreign military intervention etc and right of centre views on crime and punishment and common market membership.

I just dont see how Elaine C Smith, Cat Boyd telling us how all property is theft , some hummus eating art students doing sketches of lady gaga songs and a bunch of folks who think Braveheart is real will win over the middle ground that is key for a second vote, if that makes me a ‘yer da’ then so be it.

The winning argument has to be sound in every way for it to stand up to scrutiny. Some of the grass roots campaigning in the last ref was cringey and actually put many voters off, the difficulty is that so many on the yes side are so blinded by this that they can’t accept it.

Get the economic argument right and we have a good chance, but rely on the romanticism like last time we’ve no chance.

If anything, I would contend that contemporary Scottish nationalism is notably unromantic; the most salient nationalist arguments in Scotland have tended to be centred on, for example, institutions, accountability and policy.

Whilst the 2014 campaign certainly had multiple areas for improvement, I can't agree that a dependence on culture or misty-eyed romanticism was one of them; indeed, my recollection is of Yes Scotland and the SNP doing just about everything feasible to minimise such influences and fight any such portrayals.

[Ivo den Bieman]

40 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I have left wing views on some things like health care, education, foreign military intervention etc and right of centre views on crime and punishment and common market membership.

I just dont see how Elaine C Smith, Cat Boyd telling us how all property is theft , some hummus eating art students doing sketches of lady gaga songs and a bunch of folks who think Braveheart is real will win over the middle ground that is key for a second vote, if that makes me a ‘yer da’ then so be it.

The winning argument has to be sound in every way for it to stand up to scrutiny. Some of the grass roots campaigning in the last ref was cringey and actually put many voters off, the difficulty is that so many on the yes side are so blinded by this that they can’t accept it.

Get the economic argument right and we have a good chance, but rely on the romanticism like last time we’ve no chance.

I don't think we did "rely on romanticism" last time.

Some of the cultural fringes of the Yes movement may annoy you, but that's all they are- a fringe, noticed by few.

for all the folk annoyed by things like the Yes roadshow, as many were won over by its sense of fun and light-heartedness. It was hardly a significant factor.

There was a pretty solid economic case for last time's Yes vote, evidenced by a 45% support; something that looked deeply unlikely when the referendum was called.

I am concerned that the Wilson report coming this week will just be re-heated, mediocre, right wing, business-friendly pish. If independence is just going to bring more of the same to people in terms of economics and governance- a hegemonic centre-right position- then why bother voting for it at all?

The Yes movement is a very wide spectrum of flavours and everyone loses when one note (business friendly or impractical left wing idealist) dominates over the rest. Sure a successful vote will depend on a coherent economic strategy but it will be a great mistake to think a dour, pinstriped, right wing appeal would be any more successful than the (for some annoying) centre left idealism of the 2014 campaign. Unfortunately Sturgeon's advisers seem very dour and very pinstriped currently.