When will indyref2 happen?

[welshbairn]

Just now, Tibbermoresaint said:

France is independent. 

The FN don't think so.

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

The FN don't think so.

So what? Nutters are best ignored.

[Jmothecat2]

Perhaps you could explain your logic then. Explain why people who want Scottish independence are insular and nationalistic but people who want French independence aren't.

 

There aren't any people who want French independence from anything except the EU and those people are insular and nationalistic. My point about the Scottish independence movement is about how its perceived by remain supporting no voters in comparison with the Brexit vote. It's withdrawal from a successful Union which benefits us greatly for little reason above ruling ourselves and taking our own decisions. If that's what you want then that's perfectly fine but it's similar logic to what leave voters claimed and to me it's nationalistic and insular. You can disagree with me, and argue against that and you may well be right and I may well be wrong, but that is a perception you will have to change in no voters in order to get independence. It isn't just going to happen. Hence why Sturgeon for example is so keen to distance herself from the 'nationalism' tag. She needs to create an independence movement that isn't nationalistic. 2014 was perceived as being too nationalistic by a lot of no voters, your move now has to be moving away from that image. Call that clutching at straws if you like but tbh I think it's a better plan than just sitting around and hoping no voters think Brexit is such a disaster enough will just organically change their minds.

[Jmothecat2]

France is independent. You are correct about the FN.

If it helps I think the FN are considerably more nationalistic and insular than the mainstream 2014 yes movement.

[Tibbermoresaint]

2 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

If it helps I think the FN are considerably more nationalistic and insular than the mainstream 2014 yes movement.

 

If it helps I think there's no comparison between the two. I think by making the comparison you're insulting hundreds of thousands of people.

[Jmothecat2]

If it helps I think there's no comparison between the two. I think by making the comparison you're insulting hundreds of thousands of people.

Only if they didn't read what I said and the context I said it in. I in no way think they are similar and I think that's fairly obvious.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I'm not aware of any movement in France for France to give up its independence.

Not since Vichy anyway

[Tibbermoresaint]

19 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

There aren't any people who want French independence from anything except the EU and those people are insular and nationalistic. My point about the Scottish independence movement is about how its perceived by remain supporting no voters in comparison with the Brexit vote. It's withdrawal from a successful Union which benefits us greatly for little reason above ruling ourselves and taking our own decisions. If that's what you want then that's perfectly fine but it's similar logic to what leave voters claimed and to me it's nationalistic and insular. You can disagree with me, and argue against that and you may well be right and I may well be wrong, but that is a perception you will have to change in no voters in order to get independence. It isn't just going to happen. Hence why Sturgeon for example is so keen to distance herself from the 'nationalism' tag. She needs to create an independence movement that isn't nationalistic. 2014 was perceived as being too nationalistic by a lot of no voters, your move now has to be moving away from that image. Call that clutching at straws if you like but tbh I think it's a better plan than just sitting around and hoping no voters think Brexit is such a disaster enough will just organically change their minds.

There are two issues here. Firstly, it's entirely illogical to claim that people who want a country to be independent are insular and nationalistic but people who want another country to be independent aren't. You're so blinded by your prejudices that you can't see this. 99% of the world's population live in independent countries. Do you believe 99% of the world's population are insular and nationalistic? 

Secondly, it seems perfectly logical that a subset of No voters will reject the insularity and nationalism of Brexit and will choose instead the non-insular and non-nationalistic option of an independent Scotland within the EU. That after all is what the people of 27 other nations with a combined population of over 400,000,000 have done. It doesn't need to be a large amount of No voters, just one in ten.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Tibbermoresaint

[Tibbermoresaint]

7 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

Only if they didn't read what I said and the context I said it in. I in no way think they are similar and I think that's fairly obvious.

 

So why did you make a comment comparing them?

[Jmothecat2]

There are two issues here. Firstly, it's entirely illogical to claim that people who want a country to be independent are insular and nationalistic but people who want another country to be independent aren't. You're so blinded by your prejudices that you can't see this. 99% of the world's population live in independent countries. Do you believe 99% of the world's population are insular and nationalistic? 
Secondly, it seems perfectly logical that a subset of No voters will reject the insularity and nationalism of Brexit and will choose instead the non-insular and non-nationalistic option of an independent Scotland within the EU. That after all is what the people of 27 other nations with a combined population of over 400,000,000 have done. 

That depends entirely on how you view it. I think wanting independence from a union which works well, is democratic, which gives us what we want when we ask for it (and has done since 1997) etc etc etc for no reason other than to rule ourselves is a nationalistic viewpoint. There are non-nationalist arguments in favour of independence but they are far from the mainstream. Surely you can see how a country which is just a country is different from a movement wanting to remove a country from a union? You are making a false comparison and I'm struggling to believe you honestly can't see the difference.

On your second point that means people have to view it as not going insular or nationalistic, which by and large no voters don't.

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

There are two issues here. Firstly, it's entirely illogical to claim that people who want a country to be independent are insular and nationalistic but people who want another country to be independent aren't. You're so blinded by your prejudices that you can't see this. 99% of the world's population live in independent countries. Do you believe 99% of the world's population are insular and nationalistic? 

Secondly, it seems perfectly logical that a subset of No voters will reject the insularity and nationalism of Brexit and will choose instead the non-insular and non-nationalistic option of an independent Scotland within the EU. That after all is what the people of 27 other nations with a combined population of over 400,000,000 have done. 

Some Bretons don't think they live in an independent country, others do. Same with Scots.

[Jmothecat2]

So why did you make a comment comparing them?

Because it was brought up as an example of a French nationalistic movement... Are you actually following this conversation?

[Tibbermoresaint]

6 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

That depends entirely on how you view it. I think wanting independence from a union which works well, is democratic, which gives us what we want when we ask for it (and has done since 1997) etc etc etc for no reason other than to rule ourselves is a nationalistic viewpoint. There are non-nationalist arguments in favour of independence but they are far from the mainstream. Surely you can see how a country which is just a country is different from a movement wanting to remove a country from a union? You are making a false comparison and I'm struggling to believe you honestly can't see the difference.

On your second point that means people have to view it as not going insular or nationalistic, which by and large no voters don't.

 

Let me make this very simple. It has nothing to do with whether a country is in a union or not. It is about understand that all countries are the same. Either everyone who wants any country to be independent is insular and nationalistic or no-one is. Can you really not grasp this?

By the way I find your description of the union that Scotland is temporarily in to be hilariously funny and woefully inaccurate.

 

 

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

It is about understand that all countries are the same. Either everyone who wants any country to be independent is insular and nationalistic or no-one is. Can you really not grasp this?

This is not true. Countries are not all the same. Some people seeking independence are insular and nationalistic, some aren't.

[Alan Stubbs]

I'm not sure how a future Yes campaign could be less nationalistic, in the sense that jmo is using that word.

They want a country to be a proper nation state, which as Tibbermoresaint is saying and the other two are pretending not to understand for some reason, is a common expectation in the vast majority of countries. I can't remember anything from the Yes campaign that deserves to draw comparisons to Brexit or FN tbh.

Jmo is right that regardless of how much shite he's talking (I suspect stringing this TS guy along is the main objective here rather than logic), the Yes side have a job convincing people in terms of nationalism.

That challenge is two-fold. Firstly there's the job of winning around people who regard any notion of Scottish statehood as insular and probably anti-English somehow.

And then there are the keeping Yes/Leave folk who are fucking oddballs and actually nationalists in the sense that jmo is talking about/Sturgeon has acknowledged as unrepresentative of her position.

I'd imagine both groups are on the old side mainly. Perhaps the biggest challenge is replacing (and slightly expanding) the 1/3rd of Yes voters who are shortbread munching freaks with the young people who will be getting fucked by Britain's insularity. The cosy "I want to stay in both Unions though" option won't be open to them.

[Tibbermoresaint]

3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

This is not true. Countries are not all the same. Some people seeking independence are insular and nationalistic, some aren't.

Better take that up with jmothecat then. He believes wanting Scotland to be independent is insular and nationalistic.

Perhaps you can explain your belief that countries are not all the same.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Tibbermoresaint

[John Lambies Doos]

Nationalism is not always a bad thing.

[welshbairn]

33 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Better take that up with jmothecat then. He believes wanting Scotland to be independent is insular and nationalistic.

Perhaps you can explain your belief that countries are not all the same.

For example, Myanmar is very different from Lichtenstein, in just about every way. 

[Tibbermoresaint]

Yet they're both countries.

[dogmc]

The uk is working well and democratic??? Those food banks must just be a mirage then...