When will indyref2 happen?

[Detournement]

1 minute ago, Baxter Parp said:

"“Scotland should explicitly reject the austerity model pursued by the U.K. in recent years” and recommends above inflation spending growth each year. A marked contrast to the failed Westminster approach. "

Determined not to read's Deteournement, there. 

Those are just truisms though. The sort of bland shit you would hear from every politician looking to win votes.

The actual detail in the report points in a completely different direction.

[Baxter Parp]

10 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Those are just truisms though. The sort of bland shit you would hear from every politician looking to win votes.

The actual detail in the report points in a completely different direction.

No, you say it does. Through the use of guesswork and the creative interpretation of phrases, IIRC.

[Detournement]

6 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

No, you say it does. Through the use of guesswork and the creative interpretation of phrases, IIRC.

I don't think you have any understanding of economics.

Ben Wray's twitter thread on that link I provided clearly explains the inevitable consequences of the GC's plans. If you disagree then explain why Scotland will do better than Italy being completely reliant on the bond markets for investment? Explain where the growth comes from after a decade of austerity without employing significant fiscal expansion?

 

[Baxter Parp]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I don't think you have any understanding of economics.

Ben Wray's twitter thread on that link I provided clearly explains the inevitable consequences of the GC's plans. If you disagree then explain why Scotland will do better than Italy being completely reliant on the bond markets for investment? Explain where the growth comes from after a decade of austerity without employing significant fiscal expansion?

I haven't read the thread of Ben Wray, the sociology graduate and not an  economist's Twitter feed, so can't comment.

[Detournement]

It's screengrabbed on the tax research link I put up. It's worth reading.

I don't think you have to be an economist to follow his arguments or to indeed to gain a general understanding of how capitalism functions in this period of financialization. In fact if you can recognise that taxation is funded by government spending then you know more about economics than the author of this report!

[Baxter Parp]

*head explodes*

[Ira Gaines]

I see HB has returned.

[Detournement]

She's a hypocritical toad but I would say it's probably better to go for a referendum than direct rule.

[git-intae-thum]

It has to be auld "Anthony C Pick" back under another username.

I would recognise that style of posting anywhere. Posts lots of britnat hyperbole and backs it up with links they don't understand.

Funny how he/she appears every now and again when the constitutional debate heats up.  HB bot imo

[Snifter Pee Rot]

Would be a no from me until I see independently costed data that tells me if wouldn't be a train wreck. Appealing to emotions is one thing but I need to work and pay the bills. But let's have the vote again if that's what the Brusselsnats want.    

[sergie's no1 fan]

Would be a no from me until I see independently costed data that tells me if wouldn't be a train wreck. Appealing to emotions is one thing but I need to work and pay the bills. But let's have the vote again if that's what the Brusselsnats want.    

So you'd rather risk the Brexit trainwreck? [emoji848].

[Baxter Parp]

5 hours ago, Snifter Pee Rot said:

Would be a no from me until I see independently costed data that tells me if wouldn't be a train wreck. Appealing to emotions is one thing but I need to work and pay the bills. But let's have the vote again if that's what the Brusselsnats want.    

We're already in a train wreck, we should jump off it, roll about a bit, dust ourselves off and be on our way.

[git-intae-thum]

6 hours ago, Snifter Pee Rot said:

Would be a no from me until I see independently costed data that tells me if wouldn't be a train wreck. Appealing to emotions is one thing but I need to work and pay the bills. But let's have the vote again if that's what the Brusselsnats want.    

What kind of "independently costed data" are you looking for? 

You seemingly are trying to make a point about risk aversion.

Proper risk assessment takes acount of all known potential outcomes.

Plenty of independently costed data is available showing the risk for Scotland of being trapped in a failing UK.

 

[Antlion]

7 hours ago, Snifter Pee Rot said:

Would be a no from me until I see independently costed data that tells me if wouldn't be a train wreck. Appealing to emotions is one thing but I need to work and pay the bills. But let's have the vote again if that's what the Brusselsnats want.    

Apparently you needed no such independently costed data to support Brexit. Boris and co had to do no more than appeal to your emotions to have you eagerly cutting the brakes.

Really, you can’t pretend to be an economically-conscious citizen concerned about work and bills when at the same time you appear happy to go off a cliff because of mindless UK nationalism.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Antlion

[AUFC90]

Or Sturgeon is a dull centrist who has no problem with austerity as long it's legislated in Scotland. And it is her who is ignoring the substance of the report eg limiting the deficit to 3% within 5-10 years.
The "attainable prize" is a delusion the 21st century, every other small country they reference developed in entirely different economic conditions. She doesn't address where the investment is to come from, ignores that debt/GDP is to be limited and that debt repayments to rUK are to come out of general spending. Fiscal expansion under these conditions is impossible.
We only have to look to Italy to see what this version of economics results in. We would actually be in worse position than Italy as we would be just as dependent on the bond markets but with zero central bank support.

Debt repayments to the uk? You have no idea what Scotlands debt would be after indy? We are literally liable for none of it. The uk aint paying off its debt anytime soon and neither is Scotland.

[Detournement]

8 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

On 5/30/2018 at 12:43, Detournement said:

Or Sturgeon is a dull centrist who has no problem with austerity as long it's legislated in Scotland. And it is her who is ignoring the substance of the report eg limiting the deficit to 3% within 5-10 years.
The "attainable prize" is a delusion the 21st century, every other small country they reference developed in entirely different economic conditions. She doesn't address where the investment is to come from, ignores that debt/GDP is to be limited and that debt repayments to rUK are to come out of general spending. Fiscal expansion under these conditions is impossible.
We only have to look to Italy to see what this version of economics results in. We would actually be in worse position than Italy as we would be just as dependent on the bond markets but with zero central bank support.

Debt repayments to the uk? You have no idea what Scotlands debt would be after indy? We are literally liable for none of it. The uk aint paying off its debt anytime soon and neither is Scotland.

Tell that to Nicola Sturgeon and Andrew Wilson. The Growth Commission suggests an independent Scotland paying £5 billion a year to rUK out of general government expenditure.

And FYI the UK is constantly paying off debt and taking on more debt. Under the fiscal system proposed by the GC we would be paying off debt but limited in how much more we can take on and subject to higher interest rates.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Detournement

[AUFC90]

Tell that to Nicola Sturgeon and Andrew Wilson. The Growth Commission suggests an independent Scotland paying £5 billion a year to rUK out of general government expenditure.
And FYI the UK is constantly paying off debt and taking on more debt. Under the fiscal system proposed by the GC we would be paying off debt but limited in how much more we can take on and subject to higher interest rates.

Ok then. How much debt has the UK ckeared off in the last year ? How much can Scotland save staright off the bat by not paying for stuff that Scotland doesn't need ? How much debt is Scotland supposed to take ?

[Detournement]

The UK government is constantly issuing 2,5,10 and 30 year bonds. So for example the 10 year bonds issued in 2008 will be paid off this year.

The UK government can always print more money so the interest rates are low. The bond market doesn't care if the total debt ever goes down only if the particular bond they are buying is paid off.  There is zero chance of the UK defaulting while it is in control of it's own currency. However if Scotland was independent and piggybacking on the pound we would have the same issues as Greece and Italy where borrowing rates increase as we couldn't print money. We could also expect the BoE to be even less helpful to an independent Scotland than the ECB has been to Greece to Italy.

The entire system is a scam. There is no reason why the UK government should have to borrow from bond markets other than to make profits for the bondholders. Last year Labour proposed a state owned investment bank which would lend money to the government at 0% for public investment. This is a step towards fiscal sanity. The growth commission report is a step towards pauperism.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by Detournement

[AUFC90]

The UK government is constantly issuing 2,5,10 and 30 year bonds. So for example the 10 year bonds issued in 2008 will be paid off this year.
The UK government can always print more money so the interest rates are low. The bond market doesn't care if the total debt ever goes down only if the particular bond they are buying is paid off.  There is zero chance of the UK defaulting while it is in control of it's own currency. However if Scotland was independent and piggybacking on the pound we would have the same issues as Greece and Italy where borrowing rates increase as we couldn't print money. We could also expect the BoE to be even less helpful to an independent Scotland than the ECB has been to Greece to Italy.
The entire system is a scam. There is no reason why the UK government should have to borrow from bond markets other than to make profits for the bondholders. Last year Labour proposed a state owned investment bank which would lend money to the government at 0% for public investment. This is a step towards fiscal sanity. The growth commission report is a step towards pauperism.
 
 

All that to not answer a single question. Theres plenty of countries around the world that dont have full control over their currency and many of them do far better than the UK. A high export economy like Scotland will do better tagging to a country like the UK which isnt a high export economy and has a lower value currency than it otherwise would have. Its why the Germans do so well.
At least you're no asking where the money in our pockets will come from. I'll give you that [emoji23]

[BallochSonsFan]

15 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

All that to not answer a single question. Theres plenty of countries around the world that dont have full control over their currency and many of them do far better than the UK. A high export economy like Scotland will do better tagging to a country like the UK which isnt a high export economy and has a lower value currency than it otherwise would have. Its why the Germans do so well.
At least you're no asking where the money in our pockets will come from. I'll give you that

Ecuador, East Timor, El Salvador, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Palau, Turks and Caicos, British Virgin Islands, Zimbabwe,Andorra, Kosovo, Monaco, Montenegro, San Marino, Vatican City.

Thats ignoring countries in a currency union or countries who have their own currency but have it pegged to a foreign currency.

A veritable whose who of aspirational small countries if ever there was one. A straight choice between corrupt tax haven or struggling shitehole.