When will indyref2 happen?

[Tibbermoresaint]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Massive error.

The sort of massive error that won't incline Scots to change from No/Undecided to Yes voters?

[renton]

1 hour ago, Loondave1 said:

I totally agree.However if we are waiting on an upsurge of YES voters off the back of it i fear a lot of disappointed people.Some Indy vote that is always just round the corner is fools gold.Removal of the Tories at WM is the only feasable solution.The current majority for YES at Holyrood will disappear at the next election as well imho.The games moved on.

Labour is as divided as any party over Brexit, it's leader aping the Tory hard Brexit line, even if displacing the Tories were feasible - and it looks bloody unfeasible, it's unclear as to how much it would change the country's trajectory.

[welshbairn]

Just now, Tibbermoresaint said:

The sort of massive error that won't incline Scots to change from No/Undecided to Yes voters?

Sadly it appears not at the moment. Maybe after Brexit is resolved either way.

[Glenconner]

33 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

Failure is all that's on the table at the moment not even glorious.Brexit is another red herring in the list of events that will push Indy over the line.One mirage after another.

Far right hard Brexit opens doors on a number of fronts.

It was 18 years of Tory rule that gave us a landslide victory in the 1997 referendum.

[Loondave1]

Sadly it appears not at the moment. Maybe after Brexit is resolved either way.

The ordinary Joe in the street doesn't have that level of interest or engagement in politics.Thats why these "game changers" never deliver.

[Loondave1]

Labour is as divided as any party over Brexit, it's leader aping the Tory hard Brexit line, even if displacing the Tories were feasible - and it looks bloody unfeasible, it's unclear as to how much it would change the country's trajectory.

It would change trajectory a lot more dramatically than anything the SNP have done.

[renton]

8 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

It would change trajectory a lot more dramatically than anything the SNP have done.

Would we still end up with a hard Brexit under Corbyn's Labour - probably, so no, it wouldn't. Would independence be a route back into Europe in the short to medium term, probably, yes.

[Loondave1]

Would we still end up with a hard Brexit under Corbyn's Labour - probably, so no, it wouldn't. Would independence be a route back into Europe in the short to medium term, probably, yes.

The problem there is selling the idea leaving the UK is good but joining the EU is good as well.Many people including hardline Nats don't accept that premise.There is no black and white on the issue.

[Tibbermoresaint]

4 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

The problem there is selling the idea leaving the UK is good but joining the EU is good as well.Many people including hardline Nats don't accept that premise.There is no black and white on the issue.

How many No voters were in the 62% who voted to remain in the EU? How will they break next time? As previously mentioned, the trend towards Yes is a positive one.

[Jmothecat2]

How many No voters were in the 62% who voted to remain in the EU? How will they break next time? As previously mentioned, the trend towards Yes is a positive one.

I'm fairly certain the no voters who voted remain are the largest group of the four, however I think it's a leap to suggest that remain voters are suddenly going to become Indy supporters purely because of Brexit. I think a lot of yes supporters view independence as being an outward looking view whilst no voters view it as insular and nationalistic. Convincing that group who want to be part of both unions that Indy isn't like that I think would be crucial to gaining those votes but that's a difficult thing to do.

[Tibbermoresaint]

19 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

I'm fairly certain the no voters who voted remain are the largest group of the four, however I think it's a leap to suggest that remain voters are suddenly going to become Indy supporters purely because of Brexit. I think a lot of yes supporters view independence as being an outward looking view whilst no voters view it as insular and nationalistic. Convincing that group who want to be part of both unions that Indy isn't like that I think would be crucial to gaining those votes but that's a difficult thing to do.

 

Of course Brexit isn't at all insular and nationalistic. Not every No voter needs to be converted, only around 1 in 10. There were plenty of soft No voters so I don't see it as a huge hurdle for Yes.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

you need to get out a bit more.

From a self-confessed troll who basically lives in a Politics sub forum of a football message board. Fucking hell [emoji38]

[Jmothecat2]

Of course Brexit isn't at all insular and nationalistic. Not every No voter needs to be converted, only around 1 in 10. There were plenty of soft No voters so I don't see it as a huge hurdle for Yes.

My point is that Brexit is insular and nationalistic and to most no voters independence is too. What the yes movement need to do is convince people who voted no and remain for similar reasons that the central idea behind the two are different. The soft no voters aren't just going to change their mind because of Brexit. They may even be hardened against further nationalism because of it.

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 minute ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

My point is that Brexit is insular and nationalistic and to most no voters independence is too. What the yes movement need to do is convince people who voted no and remain for similar reasons that the central idea behind the two are different. The soft no voters aren't just going to change their mind because of Brexit. They may even be hardened against further nationalism because of it.

 

You're clutching at a lot of straws here. 

[Jmothecat2]

You're clutching at a lot of straws here. 

Why? This is about how yes voters are going to convince remain voters to vote for independence. How are you going to do that? It's clear that it isn't just going to randomly happen, you have to go out there and convince them. My suggestion is by trying to feed into why no voters voted no and voted remain and what they are trying to reject. Not sure how that's clutching at straws.

[Tibbermoresaint]

Just now, Jmothecat2 said:

 

Why? This is about how yes voters are going to convince remain voters to vote for independence. How are you going to do that? It's clear that it isn't just going to randomly happen, you have to go out there and convince them. My suggestion is by trying to feed into why no voters voted no and voted remain and what they are trying to reject. Not sure how that's clutching at straws.

 

Do you think Brexit is more or less insular and nationalistic than Scottish independence?

[Jmothecat2]

Do you think Brexit is more or less insular and nationalistic than Scottish independence?

Roughly the same. The issue is how its perceived by no voters rather than what it is anyway.

[Tibbermoresaint]

1 minute ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

Roughly the same. The issue is how its perceived by no voters rather than what it is anyway.

 

Do you think French independence is insular and nationalistic?

[HTG]

1 minute ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

Roughly the same. 

 

Don't talk pish. The only people who believe this are the "Scottish Nazi Party" brigade who are complete and utter morons. Whatever else you might be, I'd give you credit for not being at that level of oxygen thieving. 

[HTG]

2 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Do you think French independence is insular and nationalistic?

Or Belgian. Or Icelandic. Or Norwegian.  Or any other country who happen to not be subsumed into a bigger one?