When will indyref2 happen?

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, btb said:

I'm a Nat myself but even allowing for the fact that different things have been said at different times that's just revisionism

 

She said that a referendum shouldn't be held until the terms of Brexit are known, the only change now is until after they are signed. The advantage of the first suggestion would've been sorting all the constitutional issues in one go and possibly a seamless re-entry into the EU. 

[Baxter Parp]

 

Trust the BBC to be inaccurate. She said it would be held "after the Brexit terms were known so between Autumn 2018 - Spring 2019." Her position hasn't changed one iota.

[btb]

4 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

Trust the BBC to be inaccurate. She said it would be held "after the Brexit terms were known so between Autumn 2018 - Spring 2019." Her position hasn't changed one iota.

What's the timeline to organize & hold a second referendum? Sturgeon jumped the gun.

[jakedee]

What's the timeline to organize & hold a second referendum? Sturgeon jumped the gun.

If a general election can be announced and held in 6 weeks,an independence referendum shouldn't take any longer.

[Lurkst]

17 minutes ago, jakedee said:

If a general election can be announced and held in 6 weeks,an independence referendum shouldn't take any longer.

A better comparison might be the EU referendum, that happened 4 months after the date was announced.

 

[MARYHILLISWONDERFUL]

When will IndyRef2 happen:

ASAP. Get rid of these Tory b**tards. If we're out of the UK they can't hurt us!

[jakedee]

A better comparison might be the EU referendum, that happened 4 months after the date was announced.

There would be no need to discuss/decide the franchise as this is already in place,if it was the 1st one then maybe,not for a 2nd.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

On ‎23‎/‎06‎/‎2017 at 21:18, AUFC90 said:

I have no doubts an independent Scotland would never elect a party of useless right wing charlatans like the London Tory party. 

 

Aye they wid, nothing ever lasts forever.

[Ira Gaines]

I don't think that's anything close to certain either. But that'd be our choice to make.

[McSpreader]

16 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

Trust the BBC to be inaccurate. She said it would be held "after the Brexit terms were known so between Autumn 2018 - Spring 2019." Her position hasn't changed one iota.

Revisionism

She said an indyref would happen if there were a material change in circumstance and regarded the Leave vote as such.

She asked May for a referendum and was told to gtf and wait until after Brexit negotiations were concluded.

The polls showed support for May's position and Sturgeon duly capitulated , then revised her position to fall in line with Prime Minister May's position.

Short memories you Nats have got.

[McSpreader]

26 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Aye they wid, nothing ever lasts forever.

Correct!

[Antlion]

18 hours ago, Loondave1 said:

Assuming anyone disagreeing with you is a dyed in the wool Conservative is a tiresome logical process.

So you're not a conservative, you just want Scotland to be governed by the conservatives whenever its larger neighbour elects them. Makes sense.

[jakedee]

Revisionism
She said an indyref would happen if there were a material change in circumstance and regarded the Leave vote as such.
She asked May for a referendum and was told to gtf and wait until after Brexit negotiations were concluded.
The polls showed support for May's position and Sturgeon duly capitulated , then revised her position to fall in line with Prime Minister May's position.
Short memories you Nats have got.

You really do post some amount of shite.

[Loondave1]

So you're not a conservative, you just want Scotland to be governed by the conservatives whenever its larger neighbour elects them. Makes sense.

I wish i could say i was a dyed in the wool Tory just so you could sleep easy without having to cope with any subtle nuances disturbing your thought processes.If we are being simplistic i suggest we all vote Labour you included and it would have been/will be bye bye Tories.Far more likely than wasting time on a rapidly diminishing chance of Indy2.Corbyn has more appeal for me than some Norwegian Blue Indy dream.

[welshbairn]

25 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

I wish i could say i was a dyed in the wool Tory just so you could sleep easy without having to cope with any subtle nuances disturbing your thought processes.If we are being simplistic i suggest we all vote Labour you included and it would have been/will be bye bye Tories.Far more likely than wasting time on a rapidly diminishing chance of Indy2.Corbyn has more appeal for me than some Norwegian Blue Indy dream.

It was Labour supporters tactically voting Tory to fight the SNP that kept May in power.

[Antlion]

55 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

I wish i could say i was a dyed in the wool Tory just so you could sleep easy without having to cope with any subtle nuances disturbing your thought processes.If we are being simplistic i suggest we all vote Labour you included and it would have been/will be bye bye Tories.Far more likely than wasting time on a rapidly diminishing chance of Indy2.Corbyn has more appeal for me than some Norwegian Blue Indy dream.

To be honest I'm more interested in the thought processes that lead someone to believe their own nation should be governed as a minority region of another nation. Pretty interested also in what makes a self-confessed troll seek attention from strangers in the internet.

Incidentally, wanting "bye bye Tories" is oddly juxtaposed against wanting Scotland to remain in the UK, given the UK elects Tories most of the time, and given they're the oldest and most enduring political party in the UK. 

[renton]

Quite an interesting graphic given the seeming significance the GE result is meant to be having on the debate around the timing, or indeed, the existence of IndyRef 2:

 

 

Based on this, at least, there was practically zero movement from SNP to Labour, and the predominant movements curtailing the SNP were central belt voters not enthused enough to get out and vote, and the shedding of small c conservative, leave voters in the old NE heartlands to the Tories.

There isn't a lot you can do about the latter group, at the moment. Short of a Scottish independence supporting, Anti-Europe, right wing party emerging that could be folded into a future Yes campaign, but that seems unlikely. Contemporary right wing politics in these islands is so bound up with British nationalism, it seems impossible to disentangle. After all, the Social right have long ago made the very apparatus of the British state, the crown, parliament, the armed forces, into the focal point for their cause - how do you go about building a movement that is both right wing and in favour of a radical constitutional settlement. It's further complicated by Brexit: Once you could have avoided the question of small c conservatives in the independence fold because they were for a different goal by the same means: The removal of EU membership. Now, Scottish independence cannot be used in service of that end - that argument is short circuited.

The former group is easier, the SNP can run to their left, dare to be more radical and not be so cautious. Give people a reason to vote and they still will. In that sense you can still rebuild some decent majorities in the central belt, and push back towards 40+ seats. I think they have to get up in people's faces about IndyRef 2, not try and shuffle it around like it's some dirty secret, a scandal to be attacked by the Tories. Be upfront about why it is, trust the electorate to understand the complexities of it. Go more radical in terms of policies, given the media will attempt to conflate reserved and devolved, play that game, announce devolved policies in a GE campaign. This, of course is all based on the idea that we might be back at the polls before too long, and the SNP needing to bring a better game next time out.

I think the latter group is the more interesting problem though. I think, you could make a case for 50+1 by running to the left and being clever on the economic arguments, but the way to a broad coalition requires, I think, some articulation of right wing ideals, that the contemporary Yes movement has little experience of. The lack of those in the last campaign meant that with only the Left on board, the campaign became a left wing party political campaign, a broader scope would've moved the argument to more fundamental, simpler arguments that were easier to win. As I say, I think there is a route to success through the left, but ultimately an easier peace to be won, by bringing at least some from the right in as well.

[McSpreader]

6 hours ago, welshbairn said:

It was Labour supporters tactically voting Tory to fight the SNP that kept May in power.

Like me!

I voted Tory in the Roxburgh seat to defeat the SNP......and it worked!!  Well done me!

Usually I vote Labour so that was a first ever vote for the Tories.

If I could have known The SNP were going to lose so much ground across the whole country I wouldn't have worried so much.

5 hours ago, Antlion said:

To be honest I'm more interested in the thought processes that lead someone to believe their own nation should be governed as a minority region of another nation. Pretty interested also in what makes a self-confessed troll seek attention from strangers in the internet.

Incidentally, wanting "bye bye Tories" is oddly juxtaposed against wanting Scotland to remain in the UK, given the UK elects Tories most of the time, and given they're the oldest and most enduring political party in the UK. 

I see Scotland as my country not as a nation. The concept of Scottish nationhood is old-fashioned, romanticised piffle  that will not improve our lot and isn't worth the hassle of change.

Your 'troll' comment is a typical Nationalist tactic of dehumanising dissenting voices. 

If Scots want to be rid of the Tories then voting Labour is the only sure way to do that

[welshbairn]

20 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

Like me!

I voted Tory in the Roxburgh seat to defeat the SNP......and it worked!!  Well done me!

Usually I vote Labour so that was a first ever vote for the Tories.

 

In a Westminster election that you wanted Labour to win you decided to vote Tory. I might have understated it when I said you were exceptionally thick.

[BFTD]

If a genuine Labour voter finds themselves voting Tory to defeat a perceived 'greater evil', it's time to consider moving to a more socialist country, like America.

This isn't a scenario that any genuine Labour voter will have had to consider, thankfully.