When will indyref2 happen?

[williemillersmoustache]

3 minutes ago, BerwickMad said:

Saw the last hour of yesterday's debate and it was as bad as I thought it would be. Both sides of the argument, as with other referendums, will be pathetic. From the Motherwell and Wishaw MSP breaking down in tears, to Neil Findlay complaining about division, then ending by promoting division on class grounds.

The desperate SNP tactic to link a Labour speaker with the Tories whenever they made a point does them no favours either. You can support either case for totally different reasons. I can see why they do it, but it really is tiresome.

 

While Labour bang on about cuts and yet stand fully behind the conservatives, indeed with their leaders making pretty much the same speech, I have no issue with the SNP pointing this out. They drop all principle and get the band back together the second Indy gets mentioned.

 

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

4 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

 

While Labour bang on about cuts and yet stand fully behind the conservatives, indeed with their leaders making pretty much the same speech, I have no issue with the SNP pointing this out. They drop all principle and get the band back together the second Indy gets mentioned.

 

 

At what point will Labour figure out the link between them slavishly following Tory lines of attack and ever-increasing utter shoeings by the electorate? 

Obviously I'm hoping the answer is either "never" or until they're finally and permanently binned. 

[Fide]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

 

Like most other people I know Im getting annoyed and fed up with Sturgeon running around trying desperately to be relevant.

Yoons don't half make me lol these days.  Literally EVERYONE they know pure hates the SNP and doesn't want a second referendum, y'know.  That's mainly because weapons surround themselves with weapons.

Also:

[John Lambies Doos]

Either the Scottish parliament is a shortbread tin waste of space or its not.
Next referendum should be straight choice between independence or direct WM rule (disband Scottish parliament)

[John Lambies Doos]

Yoons don't half make me lol these days.  Literally EVERYONE they know pure hates the SNP and doesn't want a second referendum, y'know.  That's mainly because weapons surround themselves with weapons.
Also:

Good. Who the fuk are Rangers tho? They're deid

[mjw]

Yeah SLab are really against poverty Kez said so seven times at the weekend.

They've absolutely no problem in saddling us with a Tory government we won't vote for until about 2030 though.

But the SNP pointing this out it what our labour poster finds tiresome though.

 

 

[williemillersmoustache]

5 minutes ago, jupe1407 said:

At what point will Labour figure out the link between them slavishly following Tory lines of attack and ever-increasing utter shoeings by the electorate? 

Obviously I'm hoping the answer is either "never" or until they're finally and permanently binned. 

 

The issue is they can either stand right behind Tory fear mongering and form a united front.

Or go full Gordon Brown and make their own passionate defense of a union that does not and cannot exist.

 

They're fucked and I have zero sympathy.

[Fide]

5 minutes ago, mjw said:

Yeah SLab are really against poverty Kez said so seven times at the weekend.

They've absolutely no problem in saddling us with a Tory government we won't vote for until about 2030 though.

But the SNP pointing this out it what our labour poster finds tiresome though.

 

 

Utterly this.

The SNP can't stress enough how Slab are nothing more than the Tories wee pet dog these days.  Every time they roll over and let Ruth Davidson tickle their belly, the SNP need to yell it from the rooftops.

I can't fucking wait for Scottish Labour's death.

[RiG]

On 16/03/2017 at 14:59, Crossbill said:

Can someone post a link to the video of Ruth Davidson saying that all that was required to call a referendum was a majority vote in Hollyrood.  It was from an election night broadcast in 2011, but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

I think this is what you are after:
 

 

[BerwickMad]

To me it comes across as 'criticise the SNP and you're a Tory puppet' and 'be against independence and you're a Tory puppet'. Again, I think that stance and that level of debate is poor. But I suppose it's easier than getting deeper into the actual issues. Referendums seem to bring out the worst in all, including those who lap up the simplistic arguments.

[Fide]

2 minutes ago, BerwickMad said:

To me it comes across as 'criticise the SNP and you're a Tory puppet' and 'be against independence and you're a Tory puppet'. Again, I think that stance and that level of debate is poor. But I suppose it's easier than getting deeper into the actual issues. Referendums seem to bring out the worst in all, including those who lap up the simplistic arguments.

It's hardly simplistic to point out that Scottish Labour, a party who are supposed to be left leaning socialists, are now reduced to a shambling husk who do everything the Tories tell them to.

Don't forget that a lot of SNP voters are, like me, former Labour voters who became completely disillusioned with what Labour, specifically in Scotland, stand for.

[Shades75]

3 minutes ago, BerwickMad said:

To me it comes across as 'criticise the SNP and you're a Tory puppet' and 'be against independence and you're a Tory puppet'. Again, I think that stance and that level of debate is poor. But I suppose it's easier than getting deeper into the actual issues. Referendums seem to bring out the worst in all, including those who lap up the simplistic arguments.

Is there not a level of hypocrisy, though, to use poverty and the struggle of people with disabilities and health problems as the backbone of an argument against independence and then stand side by side with the Tories?

It seems to me that Labour are standing against the SNP rather than against Independence.  It's almost forgivable that individuals can't separate the two but for a political party it's not.

Labour hate the SNP.  Absolutely and it's not hard to see why.  They let that colour everything they do and say though, and all it's doing it's driving the nail deeper and deeper into their coffin.  When watching Kezia Dugdale and Anas Sarwar speaking, the pure loathing for the SNP, and Sturgeon is palpable.

Why would anyone warm to that?

[Colkitto]

1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

She cant CALL a referendum she can only call FOR a referendum from the UK govt and even that is a couple of years away.

Like most other people I know Im getting annoyed and fed up with Sturgeon running around trying desperately to be relevant. Her priorities do not match those of the people of Scotland. 

Why anyone would want to give away their country to Brussels with their slow economic growth, high unemployment , unfair prejudicial  single market , C A P that only benefits France and costly bureacracy is beyond me.

Scotland would be swallowed up by the EU and shat out the other end.

[Shades75]

6 minutes ago, Fide said:

It's hardly simplistic to point out that Scottish Labour, a party who are supposed to be left leaning socialists, are now reduced to a shambling husk who do everything the Tories tell them to.

Don't forget that a lot of SNP voters are, like me, former Labour voters who became completely disillusioned with what Labour, specifically in Scotland, stand for.

Agreed.

I still, if I lived in England, would vote and support Labour and it still disappoints me that the party of the people I knew growing up has disintegrated.

The better together campaign did that to them and yet, here they are, siding with the Tories again.  There'll absolutely be Independence supporting MSP's and members.  Why are they silenced to protect a union that will serve the Tories well for the foreseeable future?

[renton]

10 minutes ago, BerwickMad said:

To me it comes across as 'criticise the SNP and you're a Tory puppet' and 'be against independence and you're a Tory puppet'. Again, I think that stance and that level of debate is poor. But I suppose it's easier than getting deeper into the actual issues. Referendums seem to bring out the worst in all, including those who lap up the simplistic arguments.

That might be a relevant argument if it weren't for the fact that SLAB have never reliably demonstrated a separate vision for the Union beyond the Tories own inbuilt British nationalism. They have occasionally tried to put forth the idea that they are international socialists, which is often undercut by stamping 'for immigration controls' on mugs, and other general pandering to anti-immigration rhetoric that doesn't make them look like little Englanders at all. Arguments about pooling and sharing likewise fail when they are seemingly hellbent on taking us out of a 27 nation bloc set up for just such a purpose, even if it means leaving behind one nation who happens to be next door.

[BerwickMad]

I'm not defending Labours stance, especially in the last referendum. Again, I fully expect the debate to be terrible all round and what I witnessed yesterday did nothing to change that fact for me. As with the EU Referendum, I can imagine myself struggling to agree with either side.

Personally, I'm not a nationalist, so the teary speech by that Motherwell and Wishaw MSP doesn't wash, and neither does the 'a different kind of division' stuff from Neil Findlay. I'm someone who believes that the nation state should becoming less and less relevant and we should be making unions as opposed to breaking them.

I'm not ruling out voting for independence when it comes as it will most likely depend on the direction of travel for the UK at the time, but I doubt that will be informed by any of the kind of bollocks spouted yesterday.

[Crùbag]

1 hour ago, BerwickMad said:

Saw the last hour of yesterday's debate and it was as bad as I thought it would be. Both sides of the argument, as with other referendums, will be pathetic. From the Motherwell and Wishaw MSP breaking down in tears, to Neil Findlay complaining about division, then ending by promoting division on class grounds.

The desperate SNP tactic to link a Labour speaker with the Tories whenever they made a point does them no favours either. You can support either case for totally different reasons. I can see why they do it, but it really is tiresome.

They did and it might be better to offer an argument instead of a put-down. However, Labour's stock response to the SNP for decades has been 'Tartan Tories' and the SNP probably can't believe their luck that Labour got into bed with the Tories in Better Together. More pertinent to Labour is that much of their 'old Labour' support has moved en masse over to the SNP with their hardline Unionists voting Tory or anything but SNP.

As to Neil Findlay... not the sharpest tool.

[Dipped Flake]

1 hour ago, Shades75 said:

Agreed.

I still, if I lived in England, would vote and support Labour and it still disappoints me that the party of the people I knew growing up has disintegrated.

The better together campaign did that to them and yet, here they are, siding with the Tories again.  There'll absolutely be Independence supporting MSP's and members.  Why are they silenced to protect a union that will serve the Tories well for the foreseeable future?

I will be very interested to see if any Labour MSPs vote for the referendum. 

[DublinMagyar]

I will be very interested to see if any Labour MSPs vote for the referendum. 

They won't

[williemillersmoustache]

I'm not defending Labours stance, especially in the last referendum. Again, I fully expect the debate to be terrible all round and what I witnessed yesterday did nothing to change that fact for me. As with the EU Referendum, I can imagine myself struggling to agree with either side.

Personally, I'm not a nationalist, so the teary speech by that Motherwell and Wishaw MSP doesn't wash, and neither does the 'a different kind of division' stuff from Neil Findlay. I'm someone who believes that the nation state should becoming less and less relevant and we should be making unions as opposed to breaking them.

I'm not ruling out voting for independence when it comes as it will most likely depend on the direction of travel for the UK at the time, but I doubt that will be informed by any of the kind of bollocks spouted yesterday.

A perfectly reasonable and sensible position. However i would say that the thrust of yesterday and today is should we get the right to choose not which way.