When will indyref2 happen?

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

Nothing wrong with the chip on your shoulder bud.

Tell us again about the idle poor stealing your money. I love that one.

[1320Lichtie]

1) That's because a lot of voters voted No because they actually wanted to vote No. They didnt shit their pants. I thought this at the time but its extremely clear that this simply wasnt the case for many. Dont believe everything you read online on twitter, facebook and forums. You guys are all talking to yourselves and not engaging enough with wider society face to face.

2) this is explained by my answer to point 1. The vow simply wasnt a deal breaker. They would have voted No anyway.

3) Not everyone believes the Tories are despicable. Millions of people believe they are the best party to run the country. Who else could have done it? Most people work hard and live comfortable lives as a result. Why risk that? You need to give them a better reason than freedom, autonomy and some socialist utopian vision.

4) For huge swathes of our population, the only thing worse than Brexit is having a simiultaneous IndyRef2. For them, being out of BOTH unions is unthinkable.

The problem here is that too many people bashing their gums online are basically kids. Life is very different when you have a good, interesting and well paid job, a nice car and a nice house with a mortgage and a few kids to support. Calling people like that cowards is pretty fucking childish. You need to engage with this type of person and understand their position. Then you might be able to see why they voted No. There is a huge suspicion that people voted Yes because they genuinely thought we could solve all of our problems overnight and that "poverty" would be eradicated without any consequences. I put the word "poverty" in quotes because we really dont have such a thing in this country despite the laughable attenpts by the Joseph Rowntree foundation to paint a household income of £38k per year as "just about managing" to get by.

Back on topic. No voters have had over 2 years of abuse. They have been called traitors, cowards and everything else under the sun........and you can't understand why such people wont change to your opinion? If you cant fathom the answer to that yourself without someone breastfeeding the answer to you then there really is no hope for you.

 

So yes voters are kids???

 

Of course there is poverty in this country. What a thing to say.

 

Only 22% of Scotland think the Tories are the best party to run our country, their best result for a long time too isn't it?

 

Huge swathes of Scotland think that the only thing worse than Brexit is Independence happening too??? Hahahah. No for the No voters.

 

A lot of people did vote no over false threats. Maybe not exclusively the vow but still.

 

A socialist utopian vision.

 

And there's abuse from both sides. Of course you know this though. The only difference being is that abusing the YES campaign was carried out in the mainstream media, not just online on forums, social media and what not.

 

[BFTD]

7 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Of course there is poverty in this country. What a thing to say.

Apologies if it seems I'm taking this seriously at all, but I especially liked how that declaration was included in a missive containing this:

29 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

You guys are all talking to yourselves and not engaging enough with wider society face to face.

[1320Lichtie]

[emoji33]

Vast majority of people on here YES and NO will have engaged and seen thousands of things discussed on the subject by the wider society on social media whilst he just goes round shaking his head at people using smartphones.

[RedRob72]

 
So yes voters are kids???
 
Of course there is poverty in this country. What a thing to say.
 
Only 22% of Scotland think the Tories are the best party to run our country, their best result for a long time too isn't it?
 
Huge swathes of Scotland think that the only thing worse than Brexit is Independence happening too??? Hahahah. No for the No voters.
 
A lot of people did vote no over false threats. Maybe not exclusively the vow but still.
 
A socialist utopian vision.
 
And there's abuse from both sides. Of course you know this though. The only difference being is that abusing the YES campaign was carried out in the mainstream media, not just online on forums, social media and what not.
 

Three kids (well adults now) they'll all vote for independence come a 2nd Vote, so they tell me, don't know where I've gone wrong?

[1320Lichtie]

 

 

Three kids (well adults now) they'll all vote for independence come a 2nd Vote, so they tell me, don't know where I've gone wrong?

 

Maybe you've just came across toooooo strongly Rob???

 

My grandparents were that bad when it came to religion they hinted to my mum that they wouldn't enjoy going to her wedding if it wasn't in a Catholic Church, me and my sister had to be baptised too. They forced it on to her that much when she was younger she felt the polar opposite in regards to it when she grew up...

 

 

You've been singing too many loyalist songs Rob. Bowing to an Alistair Darling photo before breakfast every day in their childhood too... You've put the kids off for life. [emoji6]

[RedRob72]

 
Maybe you've just came across toooooo strongly Rob???
 
My grandparents were that bad when it came to religion they hinted to my mum that they wouldn't enjoy going to her wedding if it wasn't in a Catholic Church, me and my sister had to be baptised too. They forced it on to her that much when she was younger she felt the polar opposite in regards to it when she grew up...
 
 
You've been singing too many loyalist songs Rob. Bowing to an Alistair Darling photo before breakfast every day in their childhood too... You've put the kids off for life. [emoji6]

Haha, all good stuff Lichtie, my kids couldn't give two f*cks about religion, or their Unionist/Loyalist heritage and don't follow Rangers, but they do their best to placate their old man, I can't complain really.

[Colkitto]

12 hours ago, Glen Sannox said:

 

Irrespective of how much damage it does?? It just confirms the mindset of separatists. Did none of you stop to think that city wise, only Glasgow and Dundee voted yes?

That should tell you something. The SNP are the party of money blind wastrels, benefit scroungers, anti English racists and general "Enemies of the State".

 

You seem rattled minter 

[Ira Gaines]

Glen Minter II

[renton]

10 hours ago, oaksoft said:

1) That's because a lot of voters voted No because they actually wanted to vote No. They didnt shit their pants. I thought this at the time but its extremely clear that this simply wasnt the case for many. Dont believe everything you read online on twitter, facebook and forums. You guys are all talking to yourselves and not engaging enough with wider society face to face.

2) this is explained by my answer to point 1. The vow simply wasnt a deal breaker. They would have voted No anyway.

3) Not everyone believes the Tories are despicable. Millions of people believe they are the best party to run the country. Who else could have done it? Most people work hard and live comfortable lives as a result. Why risk that? You need to give them a better reason than freedom, autonomy and some socialist utopian vision.

4) For huge swathes of our population, the only thing worse than Brexit is having a simiultaneous IndyRef2. For them, being out of BOTH unions is unthinkable.

The problem here is that too many people bashing their gums online are basically kids. Life is very different when you have a good, interesting and well paid job, a nice car and a nice house with a mortgage and a few kids to support. Calling people like that cowards is pretty fucking childish. You need to engage with this type of person and understand their position. Then you might be able to see why they voted No. There is a huge suspicion that people voted Yes because they genuinely thought we could solve all of our problems overnight and that "poverty" would be eradicated without any consequences. I put the word "poverty" in quotes because we really dont have such a thing in this country despite the laughable attenpts by the Joseph Rowntree foundation to paint a household income of £38k per year as "just about managing" to get by.

Back on topic. No voters have had over 2 years of abuse. They have been called traitors, cowards and everything else under the sun........and you can't understand why such people wont change to your opinion? If you cant fathom the answer to that yourself without someone breastfeeding the answer to you then there really is no hope for you.

The best data we have in terms of voting demographics shows a Yes lead up to the 40-49 bracket (which was 50/50), followed by a near exponential growth in the No vote beyond that. In other words, you have 2/3rds of the working age demographics breaking Yes. The same data showed no really obvious skew either way in terms of educational attainment, so on that metric at least, earning potential plays less of a role - that's not to say actual earning power doesn't. And while there might have been a fair amount of enthusiasm for independence amongst lower percentile income groups in polls pre-referendum, it should be noted that turnout in lower income areas was down against the normal. We might also consider the infamous stat where Scots born/Scots residents broke 53/47 yes, and other UK born/Scots residents broke 20/80 No, with EU residents breaking 35/65 No. While individual economic concerns would play a central role, it doesn't look from that data like it was the deciding factor for many.

It's easy to see the winning margin then, in the monolithic, would never vote Yes demographics - the older generations closer to the "finest hour", those settled here from the rest of the UK, who call it home because it's the UK. On the other hand, the Vow probably played a role in stopping any more working age, Scots born/Scots resident vote leaking to Yes. That's the demographic Yes can win in, and the one it needs to win bigger in next time. We will have an extra 100,000 votes from that 65% of EU No voters next time out. The big problem facing Yes is it's own internal split: Yes actually has gained some converts since Brexit but has also lost some in the opposite direction: Those for whom threats of being out of the EU last time were an enticement to Yes, the more fundamentalist wing of the movement. Yet the polls did spike immediately after the EU vote - the needle can be moved if people believe Brexit will be detrimental to them, and in the shock of the vote aftermath, they seem to do so - before the phony war period kicked in.

Name calling may be puerile, but it's going on both sides. Twitter on this topic is not quite the echo chamber it's made out to be, but is rather the two committed, fundamentalist wings barking at each other. In day to day life, for the majority of the populace, I don't think it's so heated. I say this as someone with a good, interesting, well paid job with a nice car, a nice house with a mortgage and an annoying dog to support who voted yes last time, and will again.

[Granny Danger]

14 minutes ago, kilbowie2002 said:

Do you live on planet earth? How can a party which set out in Government to cut public spending and ended up increasing borrowing exponentially, being responsible for absolutely destroying the NHS in England and undermining just about every other public body be considered by any right minded person as the best party for the job? A party who lied to the people of this country about leaving Europe and spending an extra £350 million on the NHS etc etc.

My wife and I are strong supporters of independence, both university educated with the decent paid jobs, good lifestyle, nice house and two nice cars and personally cant see anything but indy as the way forward, thats also the mentality of most of the people we socialise with who are from the same economic standpoint. I fail to understand the point youre making here? I think plenty of middle class folks want to improve life for everyone in Scotland and will vote for indy for that very reason. My wife as a doctor would stand to make a whole lot more money under a private healthcare system but it couldnt be further from what we want for the NHS.

Norway as an example I wouldn't class Norway as a leftist country, probably more central on the political spectrum on most things yet they have a strong emphasis on social movement, education and public services. I'd much much rather see my tax money (given my wife and I pay a shit load of it) go towards these things than trident, bailing out banks, heathrow airport and all the other nonsense which doesnt make life better for people in Scotland.
 

You have to give oaksoft his due, he must be one of the most entertaining posters on here.  And probably the most deluded.

However he does raise some interesting issues.  The idea that everyone is driven by self-interest is laughably simplistic; you would think that 'Doctor' oaksoft would know better.

On the face of it I am probably a poster boy for his sort of Toryism/free market thinking (little formal education, wife and I lived in a two bedroomed council flat with until I was 38; now have a very successful business, huge house, several holidays a year and drive a Merc).  The idea that somehow that means you abandon your commitment to social justice and a more equatable society is laughable.

The idea that only the poor, young, uneducated and disadvantaged oppose the worst excesses of free market Toryism is defied by the cross section of Scottish society who support Independence as an alternative to what the Tories offer.

[Fide]

Well played P&B.

An absolute STINKER of a post from Oaksoft, followed by 3 superb posts by Renton, Kilbowie2002 and Granny.

Not that he'll listen.  His permarage has lessened his ability to read, it would seem.

[bob the tank]

I read an interesting article last night by someone who was working at the Argyll and Bute referendum count. This person, along with several colleagues on the night, were very concerned about the levels of no voters in the postal ballots. These people had been out canvassing in the area and thought they had the statistics of the voting intentions pretty much sussed, then the postal ballots came in with world record votes against. They have studied the returns over several elections, both council, general elections and the EUref, and the findings are quite staggering. These findings were forwarded to the various bodies responsible for electoral regulations and they haven't yet received a decent reply to explain the discrepancies all over Scotland. They have been fobbed off with a fudge about police investigations ongoing and general waffle. I can't find the link at the moment but I'll try and put it up later. The defeat in indyref1 certainly looks like an establishment covert operation, and I for one am not surprised

[AUFC90]

Just now, oaksoft said:

Well the NHS in England clearly hasn't been "absolutely destroyed".

I also voted Yes before and would do so again. The points I am making is to answer the question put forward in an earlier post about why Yes isn't ahead in the polls despite all of that.

I wouldn't disagree with your last paragraph.

I strongly favour personal responsibility over collective responsibility though. I do believe in both however.

In an independent Scotland I would almost certainly vote SNP or Tory depending on their policies.

But you're wrong. I know plenty of working class people with hardly a bean to their name who voted no. I also know plenty of successful people with a lot to lose who voted yes. Age and historical ties to old blighty are and will always be the biggest factor. Not forgetting the 500,000 English people who, almost to a man, voted no.

[BFTD]

25 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Top quality humblebragging and a dose of rank hypocrisy right there GD.  

 

17 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Life is very different when you have a good, interesting and well paid job, a nice car and a nice house with a mortgage and a few kids to support.

 

[killiefan27]

Crackpots on Twitter claiming the Herald changed the RBS logo on their front page to hurt the SNP...

I voted Yes, but I'm not sure I can cope with another referendum if it's going to mean shite like this...

Edited February 21, 2017 by killiefan27

[williemillersmoustache]

I agree the minutia will be tedious but I've never seen an RBS logo in yellow and black before.

Also the number of times I've seen folk implying RBS is some kind of fucking piggy bank for the Scottish royal family and is therefore a gauge of how an iScotland would perform fiscally, makes me cry in frustration.

[BFTD]

Just now, oaksoft said:

Do you actually know what humblebragging is Dave? 

It appears to be your reason for having a P&B account.

[BFTD]

Just now, oaksoft said:

So that'll be a No then.

FFS

So your raison d'etre isn't to bring our attention to  the important, well-paid jobs you've worked very hard at in order to achieve your status in life?

Or is your issue that you've always put it on front street? I was assuming the other stuff was an attempt to mask the main purpose. You're just a self-confessed braggart?

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Do you actually know what humblebragging is Dave? 

Just figured out who oaksoft is.

 

Edited February 21, 2017 by welshbairn