RedRob72 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 The way Brexit's working out, a second Ref moves further and further away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 The way Brexit's working out, a second Ref moves further and further away. Why? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 11 minutes ago, RedRob72 said: The way Brexit's working out, a second Ref moves further and further away. Interesting. Firstly, how is Brexit working out? Then how is it pushing another Referendum further away? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Why? There's far too much to sort out leaving the EU, before the government can even consider the possibility of breaking up the UK again, within this mess. I don't think anyone, Politicians, Political Commentators, and the general public were even remotely prepared for this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cream Cheese Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, RedRob72 said: There's far too much to sort out leaving the EU, before the government can even consider the possibility of breaking up the UK again, within this mess. I don't think anyone, Politicians, Political Commentators, and the general public were even remotely prepared for this. If that's the case, then this is the perfect scenario for the SNP. SNP: Give us a referendum Wastemonster: Naw, we're busy! *Takes independence* 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 2 minutes ago, RedRob72 said: There's far too much to sort out leaving the EU, before the government can even consider the possibility of breaking up the UK again, within this mess. I don't think anyone, Politicians, Political Commentators, and the general public were even remotely prepared for this. That makes no sense. The Scottish Government doesn't have to sort out anything about leaving the EU, indeed "breaking up the UK" is their solution to that particular vexing conundrum, so they are pretty much good to go. The only thing that prevents an INdyRef 2, is some form of magic bean that allows Scotland to remain inside both unions - a particulalry soft brexit that the UK government cannot, will not deliver. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Theresa better get rob into her cabinet, he's the only person in Britain who knows what's going on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, renton said: That makes no sense. The Scottish Government doesn't have to sort out anything about leaving the EU, indeed "breaking up the UK" is their solution to that particular vexing conundrum, so they are pretty much good to go. The only thing that prevents an INdyRef 2, is some form of magic bean that allows Scotland to remain inside both unions - a particulalry soft brexit that the UK government cannot, will not deliver. I'd be bang up for a deal to keep Scotland in the free market. It's absolutely not going to happen but whilst we're talking hypotheticals... It would be a superb bit of business for our economy and still be a good thing for Indy in the long run. It would take away the possibility of an immediate Referendum but would be part of the long term salami slicing as VT would put it, in establishing Scotland as a separate state. A significantly richer and more confident one on account of this scenario. The radge National reader types who only care about getting Independence asap wouldn't like it but everyone else should be rooting for this scenario. A soft Brexit to accommodate Scotland would make the UK absolutely toxic. Edited October 21, 2016 by Alan Stubbs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Just now, Alan Stubbs said: I'd be bang up for a deal to keep Scotland in the free market. It's absolutely not going to happen but whilst we're talking hypotheticals... It would be a superb bit of business for our economy and still be a good thing for Indy in the long run. It would take away the possibility of an immediate Referendum but would be part of the long term salami slicing as VT would put it, in establishing Scotland as a separate state. A significantly richer and more confident one on account of this scenario. The radge National reader types who only care about getting Independence asap wouldn't like it but everyone else should be routing for this scenario. A soft Brexit to accommodate Scotland would make the UK absolutely toxic. Indeed, the devolution of necessary powers to make such a deal work would half decouple us form the UK in one go, while a few years of divering political landscapes on either side of the EU border would finish the job. Not going to happen though, I'm fairly sceptical of the salami slicing concept as well - only because it's difficult to see where we ge tthe impetus for moving more powers. It took a near miss in the Indyref to get a bit of income tax devolved, it's hard to see where else we can pressure the Uk government into devolving more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Theresa better get rob into her cabinet, he's the only person in Britain who knows what's going on. That's the thing, I don't think anyone knows how this is going to pan out, there's no way that the British Government will endorse a 2nd Ref at the moment though! Just an opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergie's no1 fan Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 21 minutes ago, RedRob72 said: There's far too much to sort out leaving the EU, before the government can even consider the possibility of breaking up the UK again, within this mess. I don't think anyone, Politicians, Political Commentators, and the general public were even remotely prepared for this. That isn't Scotland's problem though, we as a nation didn't vote for that mess in the first place. The goalposts have now changed with regards to the first Indyref, the terms are completely different now. If Scotland votes NO again that is the matter over for the next 20+ years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Just now, RedRob72 said: That's the thing, I don't think anyone knows how this is going to pan out, there's no way that the British Government will endorse a 2nd Ref at the moment though! Just an opinion. It's not really within their gift to endorse or reject it. They can, obviously - but the reality of the situation is that stopping ScotGov from having one will play massively into the hands of the Indy crowd and put long term pressure on the Union. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 It's not really within their gift to endorse or reject it. They can, obviously - but the reality of the situation is that stopping ScotGov from having one will play massively into the hands of the Indy crowd and put long term pressure on the Union. Of course it's down to the British Government, Cameron granted it, May won't, certainly not at the moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Just now, RedRob72 said: Of course it's down to the British Government, Cameron granted it, May won't, certainly not at the moment. You misunderstand me. Of course they have the technical power to do so, christ they could dissolve Holyrood tomorrow if they so wished - but they won't, and for the same reason they wouldn't dare reject another Indy Ref. To do so would look anti democratic, authoritarian - would push many onto the yes side, would be used as a source for grievance in the future: You might block one now, but eventually there will be another one, and that denial will be in the SNP's back pocket, ready to wheel out. The Union's limited and diminishing appeal wouldn't survive such a manouvere. Particulalry from a PM with absolutley zero mandate, and especially when the SNP can point to a strong mandate on their side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 I'd be bang up for a deal to keep Scotland in the free market. It's absolutely not going to happen but whilst we're talking hypotheticals... It would be a superb bit of business for our economy and still be a good thing for Indy in the long run. It would take away the possibility of an immediate Referendum but would be part of the long term salami slicing as VT would put it, in establishing Scotland as a separate state. A significantly richer and more confident one on account of this scenario. The radge National reader types who only care about getting Independence asap wouldn't like it but everyone else should be rooting for this scenario. A soft Brexit to accommodate Scotland would make the UK absolutely toxic. Firmly on board with this Stubbsy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 It's not really within their gift to endorse or reject it. They can, obviously - but the reality of the situation is that stopping ScotGov from having one will play massively into the hands of the Indy crowd and put long term pressure on the Union. This is not the case in catalonia though. The Spanish government won't endorse a referendum there, yet catalonia has them. It's still part of Spain tho 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said: This is not the case in catalonia though. The Spanish government won't endorse a referendum there, yet catalonia has them. It's still part of Spain tho Precedent is everything. By agreeing to the referendum previously, Cameron gave away that authority, he set the bar for having one, based on nothing more than a majority at Holyrood able and willing to ask for one. That genie is out of the bottle now, and the standard set. When you give poeple the power to do things you tend to find they are reluctant to give that power up. Westminster gave Holyrood that power. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigma Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Can see UK gov offering a take-it-or-leave-it referendum requiring a 55-60% win. That way it doesn't look like they rejected it and can have a go at SNP for it going with it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Leader of one of the European Parliamentary groups on the radio today reporting that May's speech did not go down well at all. This bit caught my attention. Quote For the rest of the European Union I’m extremely positive for the future because of the development in Great Britain – the pound sterling, the economic damage for Britain and the debate about the future of Scotland. You have lot of internal battles to fight on, and people all over Europe see this. Is this Scotland being lined up as leverage against Britain, I see? I think it is 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 The way Brexit's working out, a second Ref moves further and further away. I would have thought the exact opposite as it looks like a hard-line deal is where we are heading. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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