BraveheartGordon Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Fair enough - if the comparison is a rolling five-year period, but his point that our co-efficient has halved every year was just wrong. Decent article about it in yesterday's Scotland on Sunday: "The naysayers predicted the country could drop into the mid-30s with no Rangers. Instead, though, Scotland has moved one place up the rankings in recent seasons. Indeed, last season the co-efficient points total was the second highest for seven years." I worded it wrong, I should have wrote effectively instead of actually, my point in this regard was that with the way the Rankings work with the points from 5 years ago being taken off, and being replaced with the current seasons, and Rangers being worth about half of our points, Celtic would need to pick up twice as many points as they did that season just to cover both themselves and Rangers coefficient tally because Rangers aren't able to pick up the points they did that season. So in effect we lose half (sometimes more,sometimes less) of the points that we collected as a nation almost every season before we can worry about what we're gaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BraveheartGordon Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Fair enough - if the comparison is a rolling five-year period, but his point that our co-efficient has halved every year was just wrong. Decent article about it in yesterday's Scotland on Sunday: "The naysayers predicted the country could drop into the mid-30s with no Rangers. Instead, though, Scotland has moved one place up the rankings in recent seasons. Indeed, last season the co-efficient points total was the second highest for seven years." And on the newspaper article this is because we're balancing it against 2 disastrous seasons in 08-09 and 09-10, the first of which our clubs won one match. My reply was a response to a poster who claimed that Rangers demise has had no effect on our coefficient and even claimed that St Johnstone contributed more. For what its worth I support all Scottish clubs in Europe and thought Aberdeen were desperately unlucky last year, but saying that Rangers demise hasn't harmed us is fairytale stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Im not entering in the Rangers debate, they're financial collapse was their own fault but suggesting their demise hasn't had an impact is laughable, we had 2 Champions League places in the 10-11 season, now we have have 4 teams taking part in the first draw in either the first or second qualifying round. The last season in which we had 2 sides in the Champions League was 2012/13. That was based on the coefficient at the end of the 2010/11 season. We had already lost that Champions League spot courtesy of our performances in 2011/12 - a season where Rangers participated in Europe (and lost to both Malmo and Maribor). Our coefficient at the end of the 2011/12 season - ie the last season of Rangers in Europe - placed us 18th. We are now 23rd. However, much of that difference can be contributed to the 2007/08 season dropping off in the interim period - that was a freak season where three Scottish clubs performed exceptionally. Even with Rangers, it's unlikely that would have happened again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 My reply was a response to a poster who claimed that Rangers demise has had no effect on our coefficient and even claimed that St Johnstone contributed more. You would naturally expect a team the size and clout of Rangers would help our co-efficient. But that throws into greater relief the reverse fact: that Rangers all too frequently under-performed. Granted, they have had European success too, but this was isolated. We need to let go of this notion that having Rangers back in European competition would be some sort of shortcut to an improved co-efficient. Look at the recent history Between 2009 and 2012, Rangers record in Europe was W1 D10 L9. St Johnstone's since is W2 D5, L3. On results alone, Saints' record stands up. But consider the disparity in resources. Throw in the fact that Rangers' frequently gained automatic Champions' League entry, or at least seeded status in qualifying rounds and I don't think it's a stretch to say that Saints - who have never been seeded - have contributed more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarapoa Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 Having seen the draw - I'm fully expecting Aberdeen and St Johnstone to get through QR1. Aberdeen have it slightly tougher against the Macedonians, but over two legs they should be fine. Europa QR2 will be tough for all three clubs, with all three second favourites. However, for some reason, I have a feeling 2 of 3 will make it to QR3. Croatian, Serbian and Romanian clubs can possibly be caught off guard so early in their seasons. In AFC's case that would get us seeded for the next round, and then we can start thinking of group stages - albeit the real minefield comes in the play-off round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Leyenda Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Would league reconstruction for example 16-16-10 work so that fringe championship clubs such as queens Falkirk raith etc play more consistently against the bigger clubs in scotland to help being them on faster so that if they find themselves in Europe they don't fall at first like Falkirk queens and others. It has been championship clubs worst of all that have affected our lack of points I would say No, because our coefficient isn't reliant on the 4th qualifier - in the past being cup runners up. This season being St Johnstone who finished 4th. The "weakest" of our teams if you like sometimes get knocked out having picked up no points, but what's the maximum they're going to get anyway? A handful at best if being realistic. Even Aberdeen with what was considered a good run last year were knocked out having picked up 3.5 points. For years we've had two massive clubs, spending millions in the transfer market, but failing regularly in Europe. And they then have the cheek to complain that the coefficient is because St Johnstone or Motherwell haven't made it to the group stages. If our champions made it to the last 16 of the CL for the next five years, even with all other Scottish entrants losing all their games, that alone would put us around 16th in Europe. Every other point from the other clubs would supplement that and we'd comfortably have two champions league spots, an extra European place and Celtic would be in the group stage automatically every season. But Celtic would rather boast about their wealth, then either spend little as they did last summer, or spent it on Pukki, Boerighter etc, then trot out the tired old line of it being unfair they're held back by the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 f**k knows why Celtic have chosen not to make the CL last 16 every season. Sorry lads, if Arsenal can do it year on year it's shameful that we didn't follow their model and buy someone like Ozil rather than Boerrigter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elixir Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I can't see any Scottish club bar the bigots staying in Europe after July this season, sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Non-OF clubs have contributed the following to the coefficient since Aberdeen's great season in 2007-08: 2008-09 ... 0 wins + 0 draws + 4 losses (plus Hibs in Intertoto - 2 losses) 2009-10 ... 4 wins + 0 draws + 8 losses 2010-11 ... 3 wins + 2 draws + 5 losses 2011-12 ... 2 wins + 2 draws + 2 losses 2012-13 ... 0 wins + 3 draws + 7 losses 2013-14 ... 2 wins + 1 draw + 5 losses 201415 ... 3 wins + 5 draws + 3 losses Apart from 2012-13 (which is abnormal anyway e.g. Motherwell playing in CL QR3 then EL QR4 due to Rangers liquidation) things are clearly going in a gradually better direction. St Johnstone and Aberdeen should win 3-4 ties between them in QR1 this coming season, then who knows what'll happen in QR2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Non-OF clubs have contributed the following to the coefficient since Aberdeen's great season in 2007-08: 2008-09 ... 0 wins + 0 draws + 4 losses (plus Hibs in Intertoto - 2 losses) 2009-10 ... 4 wins + 0 draws + 8 losses 2010-11 ... 3 wins + 2 draws + 5 losses 2011-12 ... 2 wins + 2 draws + 2 losses 2012-13 ... 0 wins + 3 draws + 7 losses 2013-14 ... 2 wins + 1 draw + 5 losses 201415 ... 3 wins + 5 draws + 3 losses Apart from 2012-13 (which is abnormal anyway e.g. Motherwell playing in CL QR3 then EL QR4 due to Rangers liquidation) things are clearly going in a gradually better direction. St Johnstone and Aberdeen should win 3-4 ties between them in QR1 this coming season, then who knows what'll happen in QR2. However are our clubs playing more diddy rounds now than we used to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 f**k knows why Celtic have chosen not to make the CL last 16 every season. Sorry lads, if Arsenal can do it year on year it's shameful that we didn't follow their model and buy someone like Ozil rather than Boerrigter. http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/john-collins-celtic-are-a-much-better-champions-league-team-than-uefa-say-we-are.129533308 Apparently you'd always make it if we weren't all so shite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realmadrid Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 However are our clubs playing more diddy rounds now than we used to? Everyone is playing more rounds than they used to. Dortmund, Southampton etc all come in in the next round. To allow for some cup winners to get straight in the group stage even if we progressed just about all our teams would start in round 2 or 3 at best as now no teams enter in the play off round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 f**k knows why Celtic have chosen not to make the CL last 16 every season. Sorry lads, if Arsenal can do it year on year it's shameful that we didn't follow their model and buy someone like Ozil rather than Boerrigter. But when smaller clubs on a fraction of Celtic's resources are criticised for dragging Celtic down despite beating teams ranked well above them, it's surely no surprise when we hold Celtic to higher standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vbhoy Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 But when smaller clubs on a fraction of Celtic's resources are criticised for dragging Celtic down despite beating teams ranked well above them, it's surely no surprise when we hold Celtic to higher standards. It's just a fact. The other clubs in Scotland don't have the resources to compete in Europe and that hurts us because of the way UEFA has set up the system. It's a criticism of UEFA, not the Scottish clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 It's just a fact. The other clubs in Scotland don't have the resources to compete in Europe and that hurts us because of the way UEFA has set up the system. It's a criticism of UEFA, not the Scottish clubs. Well tell that to the moron Keith Jackson. Edit: On another point - does the co-efficient really matter now anyway if a pub league like Armenia can get four teams into Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vbhoy Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Well tell that to the moron Keith Jackson. Edit: On another point - does the co-efficient really matter now anyway if a pub league like Armenia can get four teams into Europe? It matters because it affects our preseason training. The 2nd round is usually a breeze and we should be normally be ok in the third round, but it's probably true that it's not as critical as we tend to make out. It's more of an annoyance - realistically the only thing that would really help is for the coefficient to be high enough that we went straight into the group stage and we're a long way off from that. Another thing is that if you look at the other three Scottish teams in Europe you have one team in Aberdeen that is only now beginning to play to potential and two teams that are overperforming relative to their resources. I like both Caley and St. Johnstone as clubs but Scottish football overall would be better off if, say, Hearts or even Sevco got as much out of their resources as you guys do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vbhoy Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Another point that genuinely hurts us is that the low ranking of the league makes it harder to attract players. If Scotland had 2 or 3 teams doing well in Europe it'd be easier to get better players here and it would also increase the general interest in our game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Heliums Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Another point that genuinely hurts us is that the low ranking of the league makes it harder to attract players. If Scotland had 2 or 3 teams doing well in Europe it'd be easier to get better players here and it would also increase the general interest in our game. Hearts and Rangers obviously have potential, but I'm not going to apologise for how well Saints have done over the past couple of years. It's been phenomenal. One way I think Scottish football is adversely affected at the moment is the lack consistent European campaigners. This means their co-efficient isn't up to much, which means they hit seeded teams early (e.g. Caley). A country with a smaller pool of successful teams can get club co-efficients above their normal station because they play early on every year, so build up a bank of wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Is Collins basically suggesting country coefficient decide how many slots each country gets - but then club coefficient decide at what round they enter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibbermoresaint Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I'm sure Tommy Wright will mention the importance of helping the bhigots' pre-season training in his pre-match team talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.