Shadow Play Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Nothing to do with any Cult of McCann IMO. I reckon he’s still getting support because: 1. He saved us from certain relegation last season. 2. He has already shown he can attract quality players (Hendry, Caulker, Kamara being the obvious three). 3. The board have shown they are willing to stand by their appointments as long as possible. 4. If, and it’s a massive if, we had a half decent striker we’d probably be comfortably mid table, having played some nice football. but Ravabelli is spot on when he says McCann is stubborn just like Hartley. McCann needs to learn quickly that there is a thin line between being determined and being stubborn. Placing so much trust in Moussa and O’Dea might just cost him his job. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Best penalty taker since Conroy. IMO. If we had special teams with rolling subs as they do in American football then he'd be the perfect penalty taker - otherwise he's a big useless lump. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravabelli Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 31 minutes ago, capt_oats said: It's interesting that it was after 26 games that Hartley went off a cliff, the 5-1 win against us at Fir Park that saw us field a back 4 who had literally never played together and resulted in McGhee getting his jotters after the match. At that point Hartley was sitting 6th in the league before losing 7 straight. Who knows, maybe a result against Thistle today can sort out your season but right now McCann's 5 points down on Hartley after the same number of games with fewer goals scored and more conceded. That's with McCann having been afforded the opportunity to essentially sign a new team too. I think it was something like 8 of the starting XI on Tuesday were McCann signings with 3 on the bench? Hartley - 16/17 P 26 W 8 D 6 L 12 F 31 A 36 GD -5 Pts 30 - 6th McCann - 17/18 P 26 W 7 D 4 L 15 F 28 A 41 GD -13 Pts 25 - 9th I'll not lie, I find the Cult of McCann that seems to exist around sections of the Dundee support pretty weird. It's probably down to the fact he's an ex player and he also came back to play for nothing when we couldn't put a team together, added to the fact we're desperate for something positive to happen to the club as it has been mediocre to chronic for so long and it's been slightly easier on the eye compared to Hartley. Have this nagging feeling his appointment could go the way of one of these that looking back in 5 or 10years time and saying "what the f**k were they thinking of giving a complete novice the reigns of a top flight club, it was always gonna end in disaster". Hopefully not though and he can prove me wrong but these stats don't lie and make for pretty grim reading 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daydream Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 4 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: Top 6 he still thinks ? He'd bite your hand off right now for 10th 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 It's interesting that it was after 26 games that Hartley went off a cliff, the 5-1 win against us at Fir Park that saw us field a back 4 who had literally never played together and resulted in McGhee getting his jotters after the match. At that point Hartley was sitting 6th in the league before losing 7 straight. Who knows, maybe a result against Thistle today can sort out your season but right now McCann's 5 points down on Hartley after the same number of games with fewer goals scored and more conceded. That's with McCann having been afforded the opportunity to essentially sign a new team too. I think it was something like 8 of the starting XI on Tuesday were McCann signings with 3 on the bench? Hartley - 16/17 P 26 W 8 D 6 L 12 F 31 A 36 GD -5 Pts 30 - 6th McCann - 17/18 P 26 W 7 D 4 L 15 F 28 A 41 GD -13 Pts 25 - 9th I'll not lie, I find the Cult of McCann that seems to exist around sections of the Dundee support pretty weird. McCann's opportunity to assemble a new team is massively over stated. He's had to work with a lot of guys who are tied up on long term deals and it's meant that having 9 or so signings and getting 7 of them to be great success stories hasn't been enough.Yordi, Low, Williams, Hateley, Julen, Gadz, Vincent and Haber are all still straining the budget and haven't played much or have left (likely still receiving contributions from the club). Past that, I really don't think O'Dea, Faissal and Holt are players he'd particularly like to sign but he's just had to go with it and work them in.I genuinely think that even if we had one extra effective player from the start of the season who could finish, we'd be much better off. Recruitment has been really good but Hartley was given free reign for long term deals that were really irresponsible.The first round of games have been the big issue with our season IMO. Took a while to come together and threw away so many points with good performances. I don't think it's a total surprise that we've hit another rough patch, especially with the change in January.We've still generally been playing quite well so that as well gives grounds for optimism (although maybe misplaced). Ross County is probably the only game of recent times where you could say we've been atrocious all round. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 1 hour ago, harry94 said: McCann's opportunity to assemble a new team is massively over stated. He's had to work with a lot of guys who are tied up on long term deals and it's meant that having 9 or so signings and getting 7 of them to be great success stories hasn't been enough. Yordi, Low, Williams, Hateley, Julen, Gadz, Vincent and Haber are all still straining the budget and haven't played much or have left (likely still receiving contributions from the club). Past that, I really don't think O'Dea, Faissal and Holt are players he'd particularly like to sign but he's just had to go with it and work them in. I genuinely think that even if we had one extra effective player from the start of the season who could finish, we'd be much better off. Recruitment has been really good but Hartley was given free reign for long term deals that were really irresponsible. The first round of games have been the big issue with our season IMO. Took a while to come together and threw away so many points with good performances. I don't think it's a total surprise that we've hit another rough patch, especially with the change in January. We've still generally been playing quite well so that as well gives grounds for optimism (although maybe misplaced). Ross County is probably the only game of recent times where you could say we've been atrocious all round. That's a post that I just can't agree with Harry. I like your thinking, so I'll attempt to form a rebuttal (Although how successful this will be, I don't know). Firstly, having the ability to bring in 15 players that will contribute to the squad is an insane turnaround in the squad. It shows that he's been backed massively. If we take into account the players that you say are straining the budget, then it's hard not to think that he's been the best backed manager since the Bonetti era in terms of budget. Let's look at each of these signings one by one: Sofien Moussa Randy Wolters Jeremie Malherbe Steven Caulker Elliott Parish Lewis Spence Roarie Deacon Jack Hendry Scott Allan AJ Leitch-Smith Simon Murray Genseric Kusunga Josh Meekings Jon Aurtenexte Glen Kamara Out of those signings, I think Kamara, Jon, Meekings and Hendry are the only definite successes. Obviously it's too early to judge the likes of Kusunga and Caulker. A lot of money will have been spent on this selection of players. It certainly isn't a budget that has had McCann's arms tied behind his back due to the previous manager. I think there's a lot of assumptions in your post. You assume that we will still be paying the likes of Low and Yordi high amounts when Low has been getting paid by Derry for almost the full season now and Yordi was the one that instigated the ripping up of his contract. We have no idea of the rest of the players and how much was spent getting them off the books, so it is futile using those as a defence or indeed an attack on McCann's reign. As far as recruitment goes, in comparison to Hartley's first season, I think McCann is well off, but Hartley did have more room to move admittedly. I'd like to point out Gadzhalov as being a special waste of the budget. McCann tied him down, then proceeded to sign 4 CH's ahead of him throughout the season and values Julen, Waddell and O'Dea ahead of him as well, so to say that Gadzhalov is a 'drain' is more McCann's fault than anyone else. Furthermore, you assume that O'Dea, Holt and Faissal aren't players he'd like to sign. Well, he handed O'Dea the captaincy, dropped Jon for an extended period for Holt and raved about Faissal whilst at Dunfermline and has played him for most of the season, so again, I think you're stretching here, but regardless - even if it were the case, this is something that any competent manager at this level would need to deal with. Just look at Steve Clarke for example. You say if we had one extra effective attacking player we'd be better. Who wouldn't? This is a league that has every team crying out for a Hemmings/Sara/Other great goalscorer. Our refusal to address the striking position in the January window, only acting when Scott Allan came to him and said he wanted to leave is downright criminal. Finally, people say we've been playing well. I see it all the time, and it's draining to be honest. We've maybe played well in periods of games, but we've never really played well. 3-2 Kilmarnock - Killie down to 10 men, 1-2 down, to go on to lose that 3-2 is not playing well. 1-4 County - You've already addressed. Drawing 1-1 with ICT - Not good enough. Going way back to the LC group stages - Scoring in the last minute to save our blushes against league one Raith, then drawing at home to United weren't good performances. Dundee 1-2 RC - Terrible performance. Hamilton 3-0 Dundee - Lauded as a great performance that'd normally see us win. To lose 3-0 to Hamilton can never, ever be considered a good performance though. Dundee 1-1 Hibs - Again, backs to the wall for 90 minutes and Scott Bain's decision to turn up for a game were the only reason we secured a point. I'd argue that we've only had 4-5, really good performances this season: Dundee 2-1 Rangers, Dundee 3-0 Partick, the two St Johnstone games and the second Derby. Don't get me wrong, I want to be positive, for people that have been on P&B for a good while like yourself, you'd know it's not in my nature to bash the manager and I'm usually one of the happy clappers, but I've not seen anything to give me a glimmer of positivity. I hope we smash Partick Thistle today, but at this moment in time it's a do or die battle. We are 5 points worse off than we were this time last season when fans were baying for blood. McCann has been backed, of that their can be no doubts and what have we got to show for it? A decent play style that is costing us more than it is benefiting us with players that can barely play the formation. Like last season, we are down to a team with no width, a stubborn manager, but also now one that doesn't have previous success stories behind him. A win today is massive, for if we lose, I'm genuinely concerned we'll be going down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Play Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said: Firstly, having the ability to bring in 15 players that will contribute to the squad is an insane turnaround in the squad. It shows that he's been backed massively. If we take into account the players that you say are straining the budget, then it's hard not to think that he's been the best backed manager since the Bonetti era in terms of budget. Let's look at each of these signings one by one: Sofien Moussa Randy Wolters Jeremie Malherbe Steven Caulker Elliott Parish Lewis Spence Roarie Deacon Jack Hendry Scott Allan AJ Leitch-Smith Simon Murray Genseric Kusunga Josh Meekings Jon Aurtenexte Glen Kamara Out of those signings, I think Kamara, Jon, Meekings and Hendry are the only definite successes. Obviously it's too early to judge the likes of Kusunga and Caulker. ..,, McCann has had one full transfer window and one January transfer window and you agree four are a definite success. I think it’s fair to assume Caulker will join that list. I’m sure others will follow. Hartley had 45 ish signings. How many of those can be classed as a success? It would be interesting to see what clubs Hartley’s signings went on to play for after being with Dundee. I’d hazard a guess all but 6 or 7 would be playing at a lower level. That would suggest to me that Hartley bought players that weren’t good enough for this level or he failed to get the best out of them. There is no question the dead wood that was still in the squad at the start of season hindered McCann’s recruitment. Common sense would tell you that their wages played a part in the budget. When a new manager comes into any club there are always players he will not rate. The problem with Hartley’s recruitment in his last August transfer window was that none of the players he brought in were a success. That is an extraordinary bit of bad judgement/ business by any standards. The point I am making is McCann does seem to have a better eye for recruitment. Whether he will be a better coach and manager remains to be seen. Edited February 17, 2018 by Shadow Play 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Just now, Shadow Play said: McCann has had one full transfer window and one January transfer window and you agree four are a definite success. I think it’s fair to assume Caulker will join that list. I’m sure others will follow. Hartley had 45 ish signings. How many of those can be classed as a success? It would be interesting to see what clubs Hartley’s signings went on to play for after being with Dundee. I’d hazard a guess all but 6 or 7 would be playing at a lower level. That would suggest to me that Hartley bought players that weren’t good enough for this level or he failed to get the best out of them. There is no question the dead wood that was still in the squad at the start of season hindered McCann’s recruitment. Common sense would tell you that their wages played a part in the budget. When a new manager comes into any club there are always players he will not rate. The problem with Hartley’s recruitment in his last August transfer window was that none of the players he brought in were a success. That is an extraordinary bit of bad judgement/ business by any standards. The point I am making is McCann does seem to have s better eye for recruitment. Whether he will be a better coach and manager remains to be seen. The purpose of my post wasn't made with the intention to be McCann vs Hartley, far from it, but if you wish to compare Hartley's signings in his first full transfer window and January window then you have: Paul McGinn - Success. Gary Harkins - Success. James McPake - Success. Kosta Gadzhalov - Success. Scott Bain - Success (During Hartley's period of reference) Paul McGowan - Success. Simon Ferry - Fail. Luka Tankulic - Fail. Phil Roberts - Fail. Thomas Konrad - Success. David Clarkson - Success. Greg Stewart - Success. Kevin Thomson - Success. Paul Heffernan - Closed the Derry. Stephen McGinn - Fail. Alex Harris - Fail. I'd argue that's a much higher success rate in his first season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 How big was that win then?Interesting to read that AJLS made a big difference when he came on - there's definitely a player in there - just has no pace at al!.Thankfully Murray came good - those goals will have done his confidence wonders. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 The purpose of my post wasn't made with the intention to be McCann vs Hartley, far from it, but if you wish to compare Hartley's signings in his first full transfer window and January window then you have: Paul McGinn - Success. Gary Harkins - Success. James McPake - Success. Kosta Gadzhalov - Success. Scott Bain - Success (During Hartley's period of reference) Paul McGowan - Success. Simon Ferry - Fail. Luka Tankulic - Fail. Phil Roberts - Fail. Thomas Konrad - Success. David Clarkson - Success. Greg Stewart - Success. Kevin Thomson - Success. Paul Heffernan - Closed the Derry. Stephen McGinn - Fail. Alex Harris - Fail. I'd argue that's a much higher success rate in his first season. Clarkson was successful for his first ten games or so - thereafter he was men. Kevin Thomson - jury out for me - undoubtedly a talent but never fit enough to fulfill that talent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girth Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 We’re the bollocks. I’m drunk. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Play Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 I didn’t think Konrad was great either. Does he not play his football in the Swiss 2nd division? If he’d done so well at Dundee he should he not be doing better than that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossDee01 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 We’re the bollocks. I’m drunk. This is what it's all about. Fucking on it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Night out is on the cards after that, can't relay how buzzing I am. As you can see from my posts earlier, I thought we were dead and buried. Couldn't see us winning. Although I wasn't at the game, I did receive some strange looks as I celebrated our 2nd. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zing. Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Si Murray is the fucking boy, eh lads? Cheers for letting us have Scotty Allan too. What a relationship this is. HiDees 4 ever x 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Play Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 15 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said: Kane Hemmings plays for a league 2 team now... A travesty of justice. If only he could come back to partner Murray. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossDee01 Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Si Murray is the fucking boy, eh lads? Cheers for letting us have Scotty Allan too. What a relationship this is. HiDees 4 ever x 100% love in today! Mom the Hi-Dee DAB slayers[emoji170][emoji172] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifespud Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 Si kissing the badge when he scored. Magic. Girls don’t like boys, girls like Simon Murray. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifespud Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 And no sign of Happy ***. I hope they get fucking smashed tomorrow and I don’t care who they are playing. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Bliss Posted February 17, 2018 Share Posted February 17, 2018 The Derry juggernaut is back on track. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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