All things Dundee FC

[PauloPerth]

I wouldn't have thought Dundee have to move.  Will they make much cash from selling Dens- it's not prime real estate land is it?

It seems to be such an easy option for clubs, knock down and build a standard stadium in a retail park/ industrial estate on the outskirts of town. It worked for us, but we were a struggling PT team in the lower leagues. Nothing had been done to Muirton since the 60's, and half the Stand had to be shut due to the fire risk. With McDiarmid, you barely know Saints are playing on a Saturday as not that many folk go into town beforehand, the city centre loses a lot of business in pubs and restaurants as home and away fans don't bother as much as they would with a more central stadium. There's very few pubs near the ground, and many away fans probably just come for the game and shoot straight off afterwards.

Both Dundee and Utd are great away days, surrounded by pubs, and at the heart of their communities. The whole being on the same street thing is still great, no matter how often you go there and see it.

Dens only needs two stands ffs.  Buy it back.  There's tonnes of space behind the South Stand, so just knock it down and replace it with a two tier Stand, safe standing lower and upper being all the corporate/ hospitality. 5-6k brings the ground upto what you are at now, and then replace Main Stand a few years down the line.

Obviously finance would be an issue, but any more so than developing the new site from scratch? Sell debentures, naming rights etc.  If I was a Dundee fan I'd be against this.

 

[Ludo*1]

3 minutes ago, AnAnInginAneAnA said:

Because when they first picked us up, they got in for pennies relative to the possible potential considering the history of the club and a possibility of building up a bigger fan base. Not that I'm a believer in the "sleeping giant of Scottish football" line that we've heard often, but we do realistically have a claim to being one of the 10 biggest clubs in Scotland. With good management on and off the field (something we haven't had in a few decades), I don't see why we couldn't push for top six on a consistent basis considering St Johnstone have managed to do it on fewer fans and less historical prestige. Add in the fact that Scottish football as a whole has the potential to be a lot bigger and better than it currently is in terms of global positioning and branding. 

 

That, and the fact that we're their first foray into owning and operating a professional sports club. A small basketcase club with potential and a fairly cheap buy in, isn't really that crazy or risky an investment.

The money that they have invested and plan on investing doesn't correlate to the amount of money they could possibly make from a top Scottish club. Other than Celtic, only a few Scottish clubs turned a profit, of those that did, it certainly wasn't a great deal and would likely have been reinvested in the club for the next season.

[Ludo*1]

2 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

I wouldn't have thought Dundee have to move.  Will they make much cash from selling Dens- it's not prime real estate land is it?

It seems to be such an easy option for clubs, knock down and build a standard stadium in a retail park/ industrial estate on the outskirts of town. It worked for us, but we were a struggling PT team in the lower leagues. Nothing had been done to Muirton since the 60's, and half the Stand had to be shut due to the fire risk. With McDiarmid, you barely know Saints are playing on a Saturday as not that many folk go into town beforehand, the city centre loses a lot of business in pubs and restaurants as home and away fans don't bother as much as they would with a more central stadium. There's very few pubs near the ground, and many away fans probably just come for the game and shoot straight off afterwards.

Both Dundee and Utd are great away days, surrounded by pubs, and at the heart of their communities. The whole being on the same street thing is still great, no matter how often you go there and see it.

Dens only needs two stands ffs.  Buy it back.  There's tonnes of space behind the South Stand, so just knock it down and replace it with a two tier Stand, safe standing lower and upper being all the corporate/ hospitality. 5-6k brings the ground upto what you are at now, and then replace Main Stand a few years down the line.

Obviously finance would be an issue, but any more so than developing the new site from scratch? Sell debentures, naming rights etc.  If I was a Dundee fan I'd be against this.

 

We'll make nothing from Dens as we don't own it and we also sold off the area at the back of the South Tier stand. The Main Stand is a listed building so we're restricted in what we can do with that stand as well.

[AnAnInginAneAnA]

3 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

The money that they have invested and plan on investing doesn't correlate to the amount of money they could possibly make from a top Scottish club. Other than Celtic, only a few Scottish clubs turned a profit, of those that did, it certainly wasn't a great deal and would likely have been reinvested in the club for the next season.

But going by their own description of themselves they're a private investment company focusing on longer term investments and aren't looking to make large short term profits for shareholders. Maybe the gains they're looking for aren't just financial, but also the practical knowledge they gain of both doing business in the UK, and within the sporting industry (both of which are new territory for the company).

They're not a charity and I don't expect them to bankroll us as such, but they're hardly gonna be able to asset strip a football club with little to no assets are they?

[Ludo*1]

1 minute ago, AnAnInginAneAnA said:

But going by their own description of themselves they're a private investment company focusing on longer term investments and aren't looking to make large short term profits for shareholders. Maybe the gains they're looking for aren't just financial, but also the practical knowledge they gain of both doing business in the UK, and within the sporting industry (both of which are new territory for the company).

They're not a charity and I don't expect them to bankroll us as such, but they're hardly gonna be able to asset strip a football club with little to no assets are they?

It's folly (And dangerous, considering our previous owners IMO) to think that they will be investing multi-millions, not be fans of the club prior to investment, and not expect a decent return at some point rather, just looking for 'practical knowledge'. If they were just looking for 'practical knowledge', I'd have to question their business sense as there are a million and one different ways to garner the knowledge of doing business in the UK rather than investing in the bottomless pit that is Scottish football.

[Tibbermoresaint]

How much annual rent will the wee team be paying Dark Blue Holdings?

[AnAnInginAneAnA]

1 minute ago, Ludo*1 said:

It's folly (And dangerous, considering our previous owners IMO) to think that they will be investing multi-millions, not be fans of the club prior to investment, and not expect a decent return at some point rather, just looking for 'practical knowledge'. If they were just looking for 'practical knowledge', I'd have to question their business sense as there are a million and one different ways to garner the knowledge of doing business in the UK rather than investing in the bottomless pit that is Scottish football.

I don't pretend to know their business plans, but until I see signs of either malice or incompetence, I'm not going to panic. They (unlike the previous owners you mention) seem to actually have a head for business. What do you propose we do instead? Boycott the club? 

Look, I love Dens park and I have over two decades of memories from there, both good and bad. But building a new stadium with the possibility for ancillary income that it could provide, is a much smarter option than pissing away quarter a million a year on upkeep and rent for a crumbling old stadium, with no room for expansion, who's owner won't sell to us.

[Ludo*1]

I don't pretend to know their business plans, but until I see signs of either malice or incompetence, I'm not going to panic. They (unlike the previous owners you mention) seem to actually have a head for business. What do you propose we do instead? Boycott the club? 
Look, I love Dens park and I have over two decades of memories from there, both good and bad. But building a new stadium with the possibility for ancillary income that it could provide, is a much smarter option than pissing away quarter a million a year on upkeep and rent for a crumbling old stadium, with no room for expansion, who's owner won't sell to us.

I think you are misunderstanding my posts. I've said I trust the board at present, I still have concerns but considering our past I think it'd be bizarre if anyone didn't.

I agree, it is the much smarter option financially but it's going to cost them a hell of a lot of cash, which they admittedly have, but they won't be doing it for the good of their health. They will expect a return which is fair enough, but I don't think they'll get it considering the work and money it's gonna take for this development.

[Maslow]

I think you are misunderstanding my posts. I've said I trust the board at present, I still have concerns but considering our past I think it'd be bizarre if anyone didn't.

I agree, it is the much smarter option financially but it's going to cost them a hell of a lot of cash, which they admittedly have, but they won't be doing it for the good of their health. They will expect a return which is fair enough, but I don't think they'll get it considering the work and money it's gonna take for this development.

If part of the long term plan is the future sell on of home reared talent that has the facilities to flourish at Nou Campie then clearly long term that would realise Keys Capital's ambition.
If you build it, they will come...

[Mkregan]

Only good thing for me is its a two minute walk to the stadium

No it isn't.

[locheedfcno1]

Exciting times for dundee though. Be sad to leave dens but it's showing it's age. Away fans can still go in city centre if they prefer and get a bus to around campy. Birkie inn will be rubbing there hands I would imagine. Weavers mill is a miss for me shit service. Few boozers in lochee plus 2 clubies could benefit. Think 12000 capacity would be ideal with offices and maybe a nursery or something to rent out? Plus it's 5 mins walk for me

[ravabelli]

Does anybody realistically think this will actually happen? Who's funding it, who's going to own it, will the club just be renting? Is it a joint venture with someone else or god forbid  even the unwashed down the road? All seems a bit pie in the sky to invest such vast sums of money into a stadium for a struggling middle of the road Scottish football club, especially in the current financial climate

[RandomGuy.]

Does anybody realistically think this will actually happen? Who's funding it, who's going to own it, will the club just be renting? Is it a joint venture with someone else or god forbid  even the unwashed down the road? All seems a bit pie in the sky to invest such vast sums of money into a stadium for a struggling middle of the road Scottish football club, especially in the current financial climate

Would you get any money for selling Dens? Or is it owned by someone else?

[locheedee]

39 minutes ago, ravabelli said:

Does anybody realistically think this will actually happen? Who's funding it, who's going to own it, will the club just be renting? Is it a joint venture with someone else or god forbid  even the unwashed down the road? All seems a bit pie in the sky to invest such vast sums of money into a stadium for a struggling middle of the road Scottish football club, especially in the current financial climate

Looking at the plans I think Keyes and Nelms are maybe working on a whole raft of businesses that will all earn them cash back on their investment.

From what I can see they're building a big building attached to the rink, which I'm guessing is either an extension to the rink to give the Stars better facilities or a seperate entertainment venue (ideally something like xscape at braehead or more likely a gym).

+

Theres what appears to be a long run of buildings just north of the stadium too so I'm assuming they'll be for retail units/food sales/pubs and the large building to the southern boundary with the triangular bit attached looks like a potential hotel with restaurant/bar too.

This doesn't completely settle my mind on the finances but the model would fit with their experience elsewhere as well as giving them a steady return on their investment in a non football dependant way....

Just my thoughts like but that would make sense to me anyway (& I'd not be surprised if they weren't also looking at holding gigs at the new stadium too to make it earn its keep too)

 

& Yeah they've said before we'd be renting from them but unlike from Bennett it was to be set at a peppercorn without any apparent clauses where it goes up year on year.

Edited August 19, 2017 by locheedee

[harry94]

9 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

The rumour was that we are going to be using Rotherham's stadium as a comparison. The Courier is running with a story that we're planning a 15,000 seater. Rotherham's stadium is around about 12k.

One thing about bowl stadiums, that a mate of mines brought up, was that when playing a big game, a lot of the ground goes to waste due to segregation, with a big sheet of tarpaulin used as a divider. Imagine the Derry only being seperated from the DAB's only by a sheet of tarpaulin. Oft.

I was told by someone a wee while back (can't remember who) that the Rotherham stadium type bowl structure was the original ambition but with cost considerations, they've changed it to four single stands as it works out much cheaper. We'll hopefully see some artist impressions at the next stage anyway.

Whatever we do, I want it to be really right to the pitch

[ravabelli]

38 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Would you get any money for selling Dens? Or is it owned by someone else?

 

As far as I know John Bennett still owns Dens so the club has pretty much zero assets. I assume the rent is fairly minimal as DFC seem to be footing the bills for the upkeep of the stadium, unusual for a tennant and reportedly 200k a year which sounds extensive to me given the general condition of it

[Dee Man]

47 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

 

Would you get any money for selling Dens? Or is it owned by someone else?

 

How many times have you seen Denny Johnstone play football?

[locheedee]

2 minutes ago, ravabelli said:

As far as I know John Bennett still owns Dens so the club has pretty much zero assets. I assume the rent is fairly minimal as DFC seem to be footing the bills for the upkeep of the stadium, unusual for a tennant and reportedly 200k a year which sounds extensive to me given the general condition of it

I can't remember the exact numbers but it was fairly minimal rising year on year - but going fairly high for what we were getting after a while (I think to "encourage" us to buy it back)

[Dee Bliss]

54 minutes ago, locheedee said:

Looking at the plans I think Keyes and Nelms are maybe working on a whole raft of businesses that will all earn them cash back on their investment.

From what I can see they're building a big building attached to the rink, which I'm guessing is either an extension to the rink to give the Stars better facilities or a seperate entertainment venue (ideally something like xscape at braehead or more likely a gym).

+

Theres what appears to be a long run of buildings just north of the stadium too so I'm assuming they'll be for retail units/food sales/pubs and the large building to the southern boundary with the triangular bit attached looks like a potential hotel with restaurant/bar too.

This doesn't completely settle my mind on the finances but the model would fit with their experience elsewhere as well as giving them a steady return on their investment in a non football dependant way....

Just my thoughts like but that would make sense to me anyway (& I'd not be surprised if they weren't also looking at holding gigs at the new stadium too to make it earn its keep too)

 

& Yeah they've said before we'd be renting from them but unlike from Bennett it was to be set at a peppercorn without any apparent clauses where it goes up year on year.

What I'm led to believe is that there is plans to build some houses on the site, perhaps this building showing in the plans beside the ice rink is a block of flats. 

[locheedee]

4 minutes ago, Yenitit said:

What I'm led to believe is that there is plans to build some houses on the site, perhaps this building showing in the plans beside the ice rink is a block of flats. 

You might be right tbh but I'm guessing that's maybe the plan for the northern end of the site - where the St Johnstone fans usually park up their caravans?

We're only using about half of the 29 acres Keyes bought (& weirdly the 4 training pitches are outside that area too) so there must be something planned for whats left over...