The Great War / World War 1

[WILLIEA]

I quite enjoy "What if" history, you can go off at all sort of wild tangents.

For instance - what if the American Revolution had never happened? What if the European powers - the UK, France, The Netherlands, the Spaniards and the Portugese still held their American possessions? What if the Great War had started in the Americas, rather than Europe, and what if the French had allied with the Germans to knock out the British fleet? What if Britain had had to sue for peace - because they were being starved out, similar to what happened to the Germans in the "real" Great War, and lost their African & American colonies to the French, Germans & Spanish? Would Oswald Moseley have become our Adolf Hitler

There was a couple of books out about this a few years ago. " What If " and " More What If "

Things like What if: The Spartans had lost to the Persians

The CSA won the American Civil War

There had been no French Revolution

Hitler had won WW2

and a host of other scenarios. Quite interesting but of course ultimately meaningless!

[Bold Rover]

I quite enjoy "What if" history, you can go off at all sort of wild tangents.

For instance - what if the American Revolution had never happened? What if the European powers - the UK, France, The Netherlands, the Spaniards and the Portugese still held their American possessions? What if the Great War had started in the Americas, rather than Europe, and what if the French had allied with the Germans to knock out the British fleet? What if Britain had had to sue for peace - because they were being starved out, similar to what happened to the Germans in the "real" Great War, and lost their African & American colonies to the French, Germans & Spanish? Would Oswald Moseley have become our Adolf Hitler

J, I've (sincerely) enjoyed your contribution to this - but please educate this non-historian: the "real" Great War?

[~~~]

There was a couple of books out about this a few years ago. " What If " and " More What If "

Things like What if: The Spartans had lost to the Persians

The CSA won the American Civil War

There had been no French Revolution

Hitler had won WW2

and a host of other scenarios. Quite interesting but of course ultimately meaningless!

decent watch

http://youtu.be/FJJtH_5vcmM

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

There was a couple of books out about this a few years ago. " What If " and " More What If "

Things like What if: The Spartans had lost to the Persians

The CSA won the American Civil War

There had been no French Revolution

Hitler had won WW2

and a host of other scenarios. Quite interesting but of course ultimately meaningless!

They got wound up because they couldn't win money from errant parents.

[Jacksgranda]

J, I've (sincerely) enjoyed your contribution to this - but please educate this non-historian: the "real" Great War?

In my "phantom" Great War Britain is starved into surrender.

In the Great War the Royal Navy blockaded Germany, which cut down drastically on imports, and helped to contribute to Germany's defeat. I used the expression "real" Great War to show I was talking hypothetically when comparing Britain being blockaded with what actually happened to Germany.

[pandarilla]

Interesting article in the Guardian about how the whole commemoration thing has gone too far:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/04/1914-first-world-war-pornography-violence-centenary-military-propaganda

[WILLIEA]

decent watch

http://youtu.be/FJJtH_5vcmM

Cheers, I will give that a watch sometime

[chomp my root]

Interesting article in the Guardian about how the whole commemoration thing has gone too far:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/04/1914-first-world-war-pornography-violence-centenary-military-propaganda

This article obviously has an 'agenda', they all do and I agree with it up to a point, I don't like the way that the Royals and Politicians jump on the military bandwagon and they're not the only ones but you could say the same for the commonwealth games, that's feck all to do with these opportunists either. I can't claim to speak for anybody but myself but I see these occasions as an opportunity to look back and say "never again" (again !) and to raise your cap to the poor feckers who either died or were physically or mentally damaged.

I say this as an ex serviceman who doesn't buy into the whole 'anyone who joined up is a hero blah blah blah, we all joined up for our own selfish reasons, we've not had conscription or National Service since the early sixties so there'll be no one left in that position. It has certainly been an escape for plenty over the years and Britain's professional Navy and Army was a safe option career wise for many in the early years of the last century. There were plenty who felt it their duty to join up on the declaration of war, just because we don't 'get it' doesn't mean their intentions weren't noble (or at least heartfelt) and yes, the anniversary has been hijacked and I'm not turning off any lights and lighting a candle or any shite like that but I do think about the poor sod's who've never got to lead the lives they should have.

[Bully Wee Villa]

Poignant poem with token Villa reference...

"Those long uneven lines

Standing as patiently

As if they were stretched outside

The Oval or Villa Park,

The crowns of hats, the sun

On moustached archaic faces

Grinning as if it were all

An August Bank Holiday lark;

And the shut shops, the bleached

Established names on the sunblinds,

The farthings and sovereigns,

And dark-clothed children at play

Called after kings and queens,

The tin advertisements

For cocoa and twist, and the pubs

Wide open all day--

And the countryside not caring:

The place names all hazed over

With flowering grasses, and fields

Shadowing Domesday lines

Under wheat's restless silence;

The differently-dressed servants

With tiny rooms in huge houses,

The dust behind limousines;

Never such innocence,

Never before or since,

As changed itself to past

Without a word--the men

Leaving the gardens tidy,

The thousands of marriages,

Lasting a little while longer:

Never such innocence again."

"MCMXIV" Philip Larkin (1922-1985)

[Lisa Cuddy]

There's been an interesting debate recently by two fairly right-wing historians.

Max Hastings thinks Blackadder is ruining our children's education and that the Germans were just as much to blame for the First World War as they were for the Second.

Niall Ferguson disagrees - and reckons it was the biggest error in modern history for Britain to go to war.

Personally, I'm with Baldrick!

This is still the best concise explanation I've heard:

The Causes of WWI

Baldrick: The thing is: The way I see it, these days there's a war on, right? and, ages ago, there wasn't a war on, right? So, there must have been a moment when there not being a war on went away, right? and there being a war on came along. So, what I want to know is: How did we get from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs?

Edmund: Do you mean "Why did the war start?"

Baldrick: Yeah.

George: The war started because of the vile *** and his villainous empire-building.

Edmund: George, the British Empire at present covers a quarter of the globe, while the German Empire consists of a small sausage factory in Tanganyika. I hardly think that we can be entirely absolved of blame on the imperialistic front.

George: Oh, no, sir, absolutely not. [aside, to Baldick] Mad as a bicycle!

Baldrick: I heard that it started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry.

Edmund: I think you mean it started when the Archduke of Austro-Hungary got shot.

Baldrick: Nah, there was definitely an ostrich involved, sir.

Edmund: Well, possibly. But the real reason for the whole thing was that it was too much effort not to have a war.

George: By Golly, this is interesting; I always loved history...

Edmund: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.

Baldrick: But this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?

Edmund: Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan.

George: What was that, sir?

Edmund: It was bollocks.

So the poor ostrich died for nothing?

[Reverend Maynard]

but I do think about the poor sod's who've never got to lead the lives they should have.

That's it in a nutshell for me. The comemoration is interesting as they though they were fighting for king and country, for the glory and above all, to do their duty. They were sold out, big time. The story of the unknown solider is also really poignant. 500000 ( I think they said) men who were never identified, and never received a proper burial. Worth reflecting on.

[invergowrie arab]

As well as wanting to halt Germany on the continent so as not to destabilise Britain's own imperial dominance it is also worth pointing out the domestic situation in 1914. Unrest in Ireland, the campaign for female and greater male suffrage but perhaps most importantly the growth in power and influence of the triple alliance of the Miners Federation, National Union of Railwaymen and National Transport Workers ( Dockers, Seamen etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Alliance_(1914)

A co-ordinated national strike by those 3 in October 1914 would have brought the country and the empire to a grinding halt and could well have been the precursor to a full scale socialist revolution.

[tamthebam]

A Scottish Home Rule Bill passed its second reading in 1913 but the outbreak of war shelved the plans. I wonder what Britain would be like today after 101 years of Scottish Devolution...

[NorthernLights]

A lot of media attention as you can imagine due to the centenary.

I find it strange though despite all the attention, the one thing they never mention is the reasons why we went to war, what was achieved from it, the justifications for it etc..

My knowledge of the war is almost none excising. I know about trenches, but not much else.

Bit of crash course helps if you're in a rush...

[the jambo-rocker]

A curious question here, but do the German, French, and Russian media all bring up the WW1 memorials as much as we do?

I feel it has well and truly went over the top with all of this, centenary or not. I'm totally ok with there being a rememberance and honouring what happened, but my god has it started to get tedious with being shoved in my face as often as it does. Can I expect the same amount of coverage for the next 4 years to mark the centenary of every chuffing thing that has happened in the war?

Maybe it's because my club have a strong attachment to, which means I probably see it more often than others, but it generally feels like we milk the living f**k out of it sometimes, then exaggeratively point the 'offended' finger at those that are fed up with it getting brought up as often as it does.

[mrcat1990]

Yesterday following the standard laying of wreaths at George Square there was a big military parade and much UJ flag waving. I'm all for remembering the poor sods that died but having what seems like a post remembrance military celebration fest just feels crass to me.

[Newbornbairn]

You could argue that without WWI there would have been no Welfare State and no NHS. The War was the first time the government took charge of the economy, nationalising the coal industry and the railways (they even nationalised the pubs in 1916). The difference this made to output was so noticeable that it gave politicians the idea that life would be so much better if everything was controlled by politicians, leading to the creation of the public sector.

[Lex]

A lot of media attention as you can imagine due to the centenary.

I find it strange though despite all the attention, the one thing they never mention is the reasons why we went to war, what was achieved from it, the justifications for it etc..

My knowledge of the war is almost none excising. I know about trenches, but not much else.

There was two programmes shown earlier this year on BBC 1, both over an hour long.

One historian argued we should have went to war and one arguing we shouldn't have. There was then an studio debate amongst them and other historians.

Subjective opinion really. I find it very interesting and have been trying to listen and watch practically everything on the subject.

[WILLIEA]

A curious question here, but do the German, French, and Russian media all bring up the WW1 memorials as much as we do?

The Germans and French do.

Not sure about Russians,probably too busy preparing for the next one?

[DAFC]

I liked that tactics of walking towards machine guns.

Class system and education, can't beat it.