The Alloa Athletic Thread

[LeodhasXD]

23 minutes ago, Father Barrys Sign (Top Half) said:

But if Im looking I could probably find 10 Andy Graham errors in a game, 10 Flanny errors in a game etc...and these are our key players....but its not the point. Even at a far higher level, players rarely have the perfect game- because its based on 22 individuals, and you always have stages when others will shine.

This is the point of the performance analysis. It gives you cold hard numbers to see what's happened in a game and highlights where to improve. In that game Fleming gets more tackles than Hetherington, Doesn't lose the ball as often. Has more positive forward passes. Out of the back 6 I don't think anyone loses the ball as often. The forward 4 had a torrid time in that game.

My criticisms are that Hetherington doesn't make short runs enough to collect the ball from defence(not something Fleming does too often either).  When he does he plays it straight back. If he does try to build attacks it goes wrong. Leads us into playing more long balls from the back line. Sure enough thats the role of some players.

But the original point of what I was saying is Hetherington is a workhorse, more of a limited player, not Player of the Year material by a long shot.

3 minutes ago, Not a Bee said:

For what it is worth he had an absolute nightmare at left back v East Fife and his lack of pace was crudely exposed.  Since then I think his form has dipped a bit, maybe confidence was knocked.

I think he's out of position at left back. Crane does all the simple things but doesn't have the same attacking intent as Waters last season. Hope he stays fit for the rest of the season.

[Father Barrys Sign (Top Half)]

 

26 minutes ago, LeodhasXD said:

This is the point of the performance analysis. It gives you cold hard numbers to see what's happened in a game and highlights where to improve. In that game Fleming gets more tackles than Hetherington, Doesn't lose the ball as often. Has more positive forward passes. Out of the back 6 I don't think anyone loses the ball as often. The forward 4 had a torrid time in that game.

 

Its all well and good as an additional tool to reference I suppose, but doesn't show the full context of the game- its a very small part of the overall picture.

Fleming is probably has reduced direct involvement in the play, and majority of the back 4s passes will be potentially to each other looking to build while the opposition sits deeper. So its only natural that Hetherington will lose the ball more based on his involvement in the trenches- far busier and trickier. Fair play to the work youve put in there, but I dont think anything youve written tells me anything that would improve his game.  I am not a fan of in game stats at all, possession, pass completion etc...it tells me nothing. Scott Brown at one point had the highest pass completion rate of anyone in the Champions League this season...my answer to that would be "what does that mean"

26 minutes ago, LeodhasXD said:

 

But the original point of what I was saying is Hetherington is a workhorse, more of a limited player, not Player of the Year material by a long shot.

I think he's out of position at left back. Crane does all the simple things but doesn't have the same attacking intent as Waters last season. Hope he stays fit for the rest of the season.

Like I said throughout my post, he isnt a superstar, and isnt our best player ability wise- but (in my opinion) he provides the strongest overall contribution to the team in a team game. Lots of others I hear championing Stevie regularly too, so Im not being all hipster or mental on this. If he keeps this level up, he'll be a strong contender.

In terms of Crane, Im convinced the manager has told him never to hit the byeline...maybe its just me but he almost always feeds from the edge of the area and never goes any further.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Father Barrys Sign (Top Half)

[Kobe2010]

I agree with Father Barry on stats as you can make them fit you,re agenda quite easily.Robertson being left out is very unlucky but so would leaving Hetherington or Fleming out be. For me a more pertinent point was made by Whereismiller on the amount of loan players we now have.Six full time players from higher league clubs clearly strengthens our starting eleven but its a really short term strategy.Playing devils advocate here but if PJ is still injured we will start with five on Saturday.Parry,Taggs and Andy are shoe ins along with Garry and Stevie in the middle so its one from Renton,Cawley and Flanny.What is the future for McKeown and Meggat when he is fit.When PJ is fit do we play all six.Given that they will all go back to their parent clubs it will be some rebuild for next season.There is imo no chance of winning the league so its a big push for the playoffs and we all know what they are like.Fans like their team winning so opinions will differ as to whether this is the right way to go.

[KierenAAFC]

I don’t see much of a future for Frank here. Looking very similar to the Jason Marr situation, which is bizarre seeing as Jase was released in favour of him. Jim signed Jamie McCart in defence & McCart went straight alongside Andy in the defence with McKeown on the bench, fit.

 

Meggatt on the other hand, I would like to see the opposite outcome.

[LeodhasXD]

9 minutes ago, Kobe2010 said:

I agree with Father Barry on stats as you can make them fit you,re agenda quite easily.

That's why I provided everything he did in the entire game. Wasn't just saying he gives the ball away this many times. Just like anyone watching I'm looking for trends and taking every action in the game is a way to quickly visualise them. Trying to convince you lot is just pissing into the wind anyway 

11 minutes ago, Kobe2010 said:

For me a more pertinent point was made by Whereismiller on the amount of loan players we now have.Six full time players from higher league clubs clearly strengthens our starting eleven but its a really short term strategy.

Given that they will all go back to their parent clubs it will be some rebuild for next season.

Every season is a big rebuilding job. Contracts are dished out at the end of every season so even if we have a good player we have to compete with the teams around us and maybe even full time teams to  hold onto them.

[English Wasp]

Meggatt on the other hand, I would like to see the opposite outcome.

So do I, but who do you drop when he is fit? McCart presumably, but it seems a bit harsh on Jamie to be brought in for just a few games then dropped. This is assuming that Meggatt gets back to fitness this month, which I think is likely.

[whereismillar]

so if our signed players (not loans )are not getting games they may end up doing what cook / Martin/ hoggan/Malcolm have done and wanted away on loan,

Cook and malcolm won't be back IMO, martin and hoggan i hope do!, but if they all want out which is possible and our loan signings all go back to where they came from where does that leave us ?  unless we sign some of these guys permanantly which i think is unlikely.....

[KierenAAFC]

It is a great deal of loan signings, but I don’t have many qualms with it. We’re working on a budget a lot less than last year & less than the clubs around us so I didn’t expect much different.

 

The players we’ve brought in are proper quality & without the loan system we couldn’t afford that calibre of player. Would you rather have an average player permanently or get someone like Kirky in for the promotion push & see where it takes us? Like Leodhas said, all the players are up for grabs & free at the end of the year.

 

Meggatt will be a tough one for the manager! Defence definitely conceding a lot less since he’s not in the team. Would hate to see Meggatt forced out, considering we all know how good he is. Hope he finds his way back into the team one way or the other.

 

 

[Father Barrys Sign (Top Half)]

28 minutes ago, LeodhasXD said:

That's why I provided everything he did in the entire game. Wasn't just saying he gives the ball away this many times. Just like anyone watching I'm looking for trends and taking every action in the game is a way to quickly visualise them. Trying to convince you lot is just pissing into the wind anyway 

 

Thats fine, but you used it in a manner which to me has no overall meaning in the context of a game.

As an argument against Hetherington you said you were backing up your claim with evidence, and the evidence was Hetherington loses the ball more often than any one of the back 6, makes less tackles than Fleming etc. Im saying that means nothing really, as the  nature of the game dictates occurrences. 

You can review these aspects all you like, but as kobe correctly states- they can be manipulated in so many different ways depending on what youre looking for.

Anyway no big deal, it is what it is- I think hes been excellent this season, and enjoy discussing/debating this kind of stuff...

[Not a Bee]

1 hour ago, LeodhasXD said:

Trying to convince you lot is just pissing into the wind anyway 

Very true 

[Kobe2010]

1 hour ago, LeodhasXD said:

That's why I provided everything he did in the entire game. Wasn't just saying he gives the ball away this many times. Just like anyone watching I'm looking for trends and taking every action in the game is a way to quickly visualise them. Trying to convince you lot is just pissing into the wind anyway 

Every season is a big rebuilding job. Contracts are dished out at the end of every season so even if we have a good player we have to compete with the teams around us and maybe even full time teams to  hold onto them.

You,re stats,interviews and highlight packages are top class,certainly not pissing in the wind.Stevie isn,t Iniesta but he is still playing very well.I agree that every season is a rebuilding job but six loans plus the genuine first team players who now dont play and may well move on is a potential huge rebuild. Loan signings give all the clubs the opportunity to have players they couldn,t otherwise sign so i get Kierans point but at what price. Got to agree with Father Barry that its an interesting debate.

[whereismillar]

18 hours ago, LeodhasXD said:

Not one to not back up my claims with evidence. One of the things I'd like to speak to the chairman about is getting a system for performance analysis on the games.

Just picked the Raith game as an example for what Hetherington gives you (he had a game where I took 7 clips in 20 minutes of him giving the ball away so I'll not give you that one). Thought he had a so-so performance like many of our players. How Andy Graham wasn't man of the match I will never understand but Fleming would have been 2nd for me.

Hetheringtons passes are mostly the simple sideways and backwards kind. It puts the emphasis on the backline to play their own way out of trouble. (Thankfully Graham has such a cool head when it comes to this. McCart showed a good range of passing too. Fleming aswell contributes an excellent range of passing to advance us down the pitch).

Although he gets a few interceptions Fleming does more of them (could just be anomalous due to Raiths playstyle)

I always look to give positive effort for making runs into space but Hetherington rarely does in fact sometimes fustrating that he doesn't make a 2/3 yard run to open up himself as an option. Most of his energy is directed towards maintaining shape mostly covering Fleming or sometimes Crane. 

Hetherington contributed frequent turnover of possession to Raith. Only 1 of these was in an advanced position. 

Chances created were from set pieces. Although delivery was unpredictable (strong wind) 

My analysis of Hetherington for that game:

3:53 Good Closing down spence(questionable support from Raiths midfield)
4:14 Bad touch loses the ball with a weak pass
5:52 Bad touch loses the ball with a weak pass
6:59 Neutral Closing down (remains 5 yards away. no threat of tackle on defender) Thomson overhits cross into the box Parry catches.
7:45 Neutral delivers the corner bounces to Ross Stewart as Raith fail to clear
8:41 Neutral pass on the half way line
8:44 neutral pass on the half way line
8:51 neutral pass back to defence
9:00 neutral pass back to defence
10:40 neutral pass back to defence
14:11 good blocks cross by corner flag. Concedes Corner
16:40 good interception edge of the box
16:50 Neutral pass forward
16:53 Neutral pass backward
17:05 Neutral effort closing down
18:50 Good Interception Bad touch Lost possession
18:59 Good tackle Bad Pass forward Lost possession
28:53 Good Interception Neutral pass back to defence
29:53 Neutral pass back to goalkeeper
30:28 neutral pass sideways
32:10 Bad pass forward Lost possession
34:06 Neutral pass forward
34:27 Good Effort Closing down
34:40 Bad Pass forward Lost possession
44:24 neutral pass backward

45:08 neutral pass sideways
45:17 good pass down the line
48:49 bad pass forward lost possession
49:58 good pass forward
50:18 neutral pass sideways
51:53 Good Freekick Chance andy graham (wide)
53:17 neutral pass along the half way line
54:20 Good pass forward
56:30 good pass forward
57:17 neutral pass backward (2 yard run would've made himself available for  a return pass. Crane played ball all the way back to keeper)
59:08 Fouls half way line
65:30 good pass forward
65:41 good effort closing down
65:46 clears ball out for a throw in. (Lost possession)
69:55 Lost possession (slip)
70:19 Wins header loses possession
72:49 bad touch lost possession
78:10 positive dribble. Lost possession.
80:27 Neutral pass along the half way line. Good Effort making run into space (slips. Lost possession)
82:21 Good pass forward
82:40 Good closing down wins freekick in a dangerous position
84:03 neutral pass back to goalkeeper
87:40 good tackle wins possession
88:09 Bad touch lost possession. Concedes foul
90:00 Free kick good delivery to Cawley (over the bar)
 

95.00 goes to leodhasXD laughs in his face , tells him he would never be a footballer , laughs again end  :-)

[LeodhasXD]

4 minutes ago, whereismillar said:

95.00 goes to leodhasXD laughs in his face , tells him he would never be a footballer , laughs again end  :-)

A little uncalled for but if Isaac Layne is a footballer I reckon we all can. We just need to have the self belief we can score 30 goals a season and someone will give us a contract.

[whereismillar]

well they say belief is everything  ! 

[Waspie]

6 hours ago, KierenAAFC said:

It is a great deal of loan signings, but I don’t have many qualms with it. We’re working on a budget a lot less than last year & less than the clubs around us so I didn’t expect much different.

 

The players we’ve brought in are proper quality & without the loan system we couldn’t afford that calibre of player. Would you rather have an average player permanently or get someone like Kirky in for the promotion push & see where it takes us? Like Leodhas said, all the players are up for grabs & free at the end of the year.

 

Meggatt will be a tough one for the manager! Defence definitely conceding a lot less since he’s not in the team. Would hate to see Meggatt forced out, considering we all know how good he is. Hope he finds his way back into the team one way or the other.

 

 

I think we were certainly working on a lower budget going by the squad assembled in the summer.  The recruitment of the last couple of months however suggests more money has been made available. Or the parent clubs gave us cracking terms on these loans. But I doubt that. We should be top 4 without any doubt with the squad we have now.

I like Hetherington. Robbo is very good and brings more to the team going forward. However, Fleming and Hetherington are more effective in the defensive midfield role and they provide the platform for the more creative guys further up. It's unfortunate for Robbo who has always done well, but at the moment I can see why the team is selected as it is. I didn't like Fleming in the first couple of games I saw him at DM and didn't see it as a long term option, but fair play to him and JG, it has worked out. Having Hetherington next to him has helped. 

 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Waspie

[Father Barrys Sign (Top Half)]

David Cox speaks out on abuse from opposing players and fans

Full interview on radio tomorrow

[whereismillar]

Ok so nostalgia time........... , one of my funniest memories of Alloa games at  the Recs was one night way back, it was probably the late eighties 

but i am not sure , we were playing morton in a midweek game and at that time the old east terracing was still there and no segregation, there was a morton fan who probably slightly pissed up 

and watched by a a posse of his giggling mates , was walking up to Alloa fans who were scattered around 

  and to each one in turn he was saying these immortal words ........   My maw is a welder on the docks  de ye want a square go ? "

he slowly and surely was getting closer to me and i thought to myself , what will I do /say , when he got to me and said the immortal words i actually said  "Yes" followed with me pointing to 

a couple of polis (the days before stewards)  on the other side of the ground and saying , i dont think we will get away with it though . at this point his mates grabbed him and pulled him away and ushered him 

all the way back to where he came , so funny when i think about it now....but at the time i was bricking it  

[Not a Bee]

9 hours ago, Kobe2010 said:

Playing devils advocate here but if PJ is still injured we will start with five on Saturday.Parry,Taggs and Andy are shoe ins along with Garry and Stevie in the middle so its one from Renton,Cawley and Flanny ..........When PJ is fit do we play all six.

One fine save last weekend but Parry is a shadow of himself from last season. He looks overweight and unfit. Conceded a few goals that he would have saved last season. Taggs and Andy yes. Has covers the least amount of ground from any outfield player by far. He would be a player if he could shed weight and get fit. Stevie we have discussed at great length already. If Smith hits the ground running then PJ  will be a bit part player off the bench. McKeown has no future as Goodie kept Taggs in middle when he was fit. Meggatt unimpressive thus season.

[Rovers1992/1993]

Not one to not back up my claims with evidence. One of the things I'd like to speak to the chairman about is getting a system for performance analysis on the games.

Just picked the Raith game as an example for what Hetherington gives you (he had a game where I took 7 clips in 20 minutes of him giving the ball away so I'll not give you that one). Thought he had a so-so performance like many of our players. How Andy Graham wasn't man of the match I will never understand but Fleming would have been 2nd for me.

Hetheringtons passes are mostly the simple sideways and backwards kind. It puts the emphasis on the backline to play their own way out of trouble. (Thankfully Graham has such a cool head when it comes to this. McCart showed a good range of passing too. Fleming aswell contributes an excellent range of passing to advance us down the pitch).

Although he gets a few interceptions Fleming does more of them (could just be anomalous due to Raiths playstyle)

I always look to give positive effort for making runs into space but Hetherington rarely does in fact sometimes fustrating that he doesn't make a 2/3 yard run to open up himself as an option. Most of his energy is directed towards maintaining shape mostly covering Fleming or sometimes Crane. 

Hetherington contributed frequent turnover of possession to Raith. Only 1 of these was in an advanced position. 

Chances created were from set pieces. Although delivery was unpredictable (strong wind) 

My analysis of Hetherington for that game:

3:53 Good Closing down spence(questionable support from Raiths midfield)

4:14 Bad touch loses the ball with a weak pass

5:52 Bad touch loses the ball with a weak pass

6:59 Neutral Closing down (remains 5 yards away. no threat of tackle on defender) Thomson overhits cross into the box Parry catches.

7:45 Neutral delivers the corner bounces to Ross Stewart as Raith fail to clear

8:41 Neutral pass on the half way line

8:44 neutral pass on the half way line

8:51 neutral pass back to defence

9:00 neutral pass back to defence

10:40 neutral pass back to defence

14:11 good blocks cross by corner flag. Concedes Corner

16:40 good interception edge of the box

16:50 Neutral pass forward

16:53 Neutral pass backward

17:05 Neutral effort closing down

18:50 Good Interception Bad touch Lost possession

18:59 Good tackle Bad Pass forward Lost possession

28:53 Good Interception Neutral pass back to defence

29:53 Neutral pass back to goalkeeper

30:28 neutral pass sideways

32:10 Bad pass forward Lost possession

34:06 Neutral pass forward

34:27 Good Effort Closing down

34:40 Bad Pass forward Lost possession

44:24 neutral pass backward

45:08 neutral pass sideways

45:17 good pass down the line

48:49 bad pass forward lost possession

49:58 good pass forward

50:18 neutral pass sideways

51:53 Good Freekick Chance andy graham (wide)

53:17 neutral pass along the half way line

54:20 Good pass forward

56:30 good pass forward

57:17 neutral pass backward (2 yard run would've made himself available for  a return pass. Crane played ball all the way back to keeper)

59:08 Fouls half way line

65:30 good pass forward

65:41 good effort closing down

65:46 clears ball out for a throw in. (Lost possession)

69:55 Lost possession (slip)

70:19 Wins header loses possession

72:49 bad touch lost possession

78:10 positive dribble. Lost possession.

80:27 Neutral pass along the half way line. Good Effort making run into space (slips. Lost possession)

82:21 Good pass forward

82:40 Good closing down wins freekick in a dangerous position

84:03 neutral pass back to goalkeeper

87:40 good tackle wins possession

88:09 Bad touch lost possession. Concedes foul

90:00 Free kick good delivery to Cawley (over the bar)

 

Fuckin hell

[English Wasp]

One fine save last weekend but Parry is a shadow of himself from last season. He looks overweight and unfit. Conceded a few goals that he would have saved last season. Taggs and Andy yes. Has covers the least amount of ground from any outfield player by far. He would be a player if he could shed weight and get fit. Stevie we have discussed at great length already. If Smith hits the ground running then PJ  will be a bit part player off the bench. McKeown has no future as Goodie kept Taggs in middle when he was fit. Meggatt unimpressive thus season.

I would have agreed with you regarding Parry earlier in the season, but he has certainly improved a lot in the last couple of months, maybe not to last year's level, but a keeper I would want in my team. Besides which, the only other goalkeeper we have is Andrew Wilson, who looks good the few times I've seen him, but I'm not sure we want to trust someone with his lack of experience.