Highland League restructuring

[cmontheloknow]

On 09/04/2017 at 12:09, LongTimeLurker said:

Go back to the 1980s (which was when I was actively checking out the Green Final of a Saturday evening in the absence of websites like livescore.com) and them, Maud and Cuminestown were the perennial also rans in the North juniors. The point I was making is that it's not unreasonable to suggest given that example from the past that if there was a pyramid in place that over time clubs that few take seriously at the moment could move up to the HL.

Oldest table I have is c/o the SNL Review from 87-88 and yes, FUFC had 7pts from 33 games in the NE 1st Division with a -100 GD.

[Robert James]

On 2017-4-6 at 08:04, thekorean said:

lol I mean if Highland League teams can't get relegated then neither should Lowland League teams.

The NCL has had 2 clubs promoted to the HFL in the last 20 years (Wick & Fort), and this league should be part of the North Pyramid (as should the Juniors North Super Region). And yes I know that only one NCL club is currently an SFA Member (Golspie). In the past, Halkirk United & Thurso have shown an interest in licensing, but not yet pursued this formally.

Inverness City (an ex-NCL member) are an ambitious Junior club, and will probably go for a licence if they get an appropriate ground-share (at Clach ?), The NCL, if part of the pyramid, would be a better league option for City, and possibly for a few other north Junior clubs. So the HFL would have 2 feeder leagues, each covering large & separate geographical regions. This would help deliver the SFA's objective of having a 16 team Highland League, without kicking 2 (surplus) clubs out of the (senior) league pyramid..

The point here is that, the NCL would provide a relegation bolt-hole for any HFL clubs who may get relegated from the HFL in the future, and significantly give them a promotion route back to the Highland League (if  still licensed). A play-ff between the NCL & North Region champion clubs would be required for HFL promotion, but only if both were licensed in the future., (Banks 'O Dee take note).

The fact that only one of the NCL's eight league clubs currently holds a licence is irrelevant, as most of the EoSL and the SoSL clubs aren't  licensed either, but these leagues ARE part of the pyramid, and can't be forced to take promotion against their (licensing) wishes.. 

Over to you SFA & SJFA ! 

 

 

 

[cmontheloknow]

7 hours ago, Robert James said:

The NCL has had 2 clubs promoted to the HFL in the last 20 years (Wick & Fort), and this league should be part of the North Pyramid (as should the Juniors North Super Region). And yes I know that only one NCL club is currently an SFA Member (Golspie). In the past, Halkirk United & Thurso have shown an interest in licensing, but not yet pursued this formally.

Inverness City (an ex-NCL member) are an ambitious Junior club, and will probably go for a licence if they get an appropriate ground-share (at Clach ?), The NCL, if part of the pyramid, would be a better league option for City, and possibly for a few other north Junior clubs. So the HFL would have 2 feeder leagues, each covering large & separate geographical regions. This would help deliver the SFA's objective of having a 16 team Highland League, without kicking 2 (surplus) clubs out of the (senior) league pyramid..

The point here is that, the NCL would provide a relegation bolt-hole for any HFL clubs who may get relegated from the HFL in the future, and significantly give them a promotion route back to the Highland League (if  still licensed). A play-ff between the NCL & North Region champion clubs would be required for HFL promotion, but only if both were licensed in the future., (Banks 'O Dee take note).

The fact that only one of the NCL's eight league clubs currently holds a licence is irrelevant, as most of the EoSL and the SoSL clubs aren't  licensed either, but these leagues ARE part of the pyramid, and can't be forced to take promotion against their (licensing) wishes.. 

Over to you SFA & SJFA ! 

 

 

 

Bringing weak (effectively) amateur leagues in to the pyramid is not the solution - but Scotland's geography, both in terms of distribution of people / settlements and commmunication links, is a problem.

[Hampden Diehard]

On 5/20/2017 at 18:16, cmontheloknow said:

Bringing weak (effectively) amateur leagues in to the pyramid is not the solution - but Scotland's geography, both in terms of distribution of people / settlements and commmunication links, is a problem.

Absolutely spot on.  I work in a sector where we have to do things even though they are lunacy and positively harmful because it's been decided on high that it is required.  To force the juggernaut that is the pyramid on teams watched by two men and a sheepdog, requiring them to travel daft distances, is crackers.

[HibeeJibee]

If the SFA really wanted a functioning pyramid up north, it could be done without any notable loss to anyone... NCL could have been incorporated alongside the 2 Junior districts as in effect a third district, and promotion/relegation could be introduced between HL and Junior Superleague. Promotion being optional would avoid concerns over enforced ascents and it could in time allow rebalancing of HL to 16 (e.g. increase Superleague to 16).

Clearly there isn't a will to attempt it. Also interestingly the Juniors are returning to 3 region-wide tiers for 2018-19 - which on the one hand makes it harder to see how NCL could be incorporated, but on the other reduces the travel argument compared to HL.

[Robert James]

9 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Absolutely spot on.  I work in a sector where we have to do things even though they are lunacy and positively harmful because it's been decided on high that it is required.  To force the juggernaut that is the pyramid on teams watched by two men and a sheepdog, requiring them to travel daft distances, is crackers.

You've missed the point of the need for a pyramid up North. Banks O'Dee can't get promoted to the HFL because it already has 2 clubs too many as per the SFA. Also to reduce the HFL to 16 teams means relegating 2 of them. If this happens (and there is no pyramid) they cannot get promotion back to the HFL, and have to wait for other clubs to die in the hope that they would be "elected" to rejoin.

Also, with Peterhead relegated for next season, 3 of the 10 SPFL clubs (Elgin and Montrose being the others) are located in the HFL catchment area. What are the chances of one of these three being relegated out of the SPFL in 2017/18, and replaced by a Lowland club ? If so 18 become 19 clubs at a kick of the ball. Plan ahead now especially as a 2 division Highland League is not acceptable to half the current clubs.

[lionel hutz]

9 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

If the SFA really wanted a functioning pyramid up north, it could be done without any notable loss to anyone... NCL could have been incorporated alongside the 2 Junior districts as in effect a third district, and promotion/relegation could be introduced between HL and Junior Superleague. Promotion being optional would avoid concerns over enforced ascents and it could in time allow rebalancing of HL to 16 (e.g. increase Superleague to 16).

Clearly there isn't a will to attempt it. Also interestingly the Juniors are returning to 3 region-wide tiers for 2018-19 - which on the one hand makes it harder to see how NCL could be incorporated, but on the other reduces the travel argument compared to HL.

As in there will still be a Superleague and then three leagues below that, or, there will be a three division top tier?

[HibeeJibee]

Moving back to 3 region-wide divisions. If it's like before they'll be called Superleague, First and Second Divs. This model ran from 2003-04 to 2012-13; before and since Superleague + 2x districts (E+W).

[Hampden Diehard]

14 hours ago, Robert James said:

You've missed the point of the need for a pyramid up North. Banks O'Dee can't get promoted to the HFL because it already has 2 clubs too many as per the SFA. Also to reduce the HFL to 16 teams means relegating 2 of them. If this happens (and there is no pyramid) they cannot get promotion back to the HFL, and have to wait for other clubs to die in the hope that they would be "elected" to rejoin.

Also, with Peterhead relegated for next season, 3 of the 10 SPFL clubs (Elgin and Montrose being the others) are located in the HFL catchment area. What are the chances of one of these three being relegated out of the SPFL in 2017/18, and replaced by a Lowland club ? If so 18 become 19 clubs at a kick of the ball. Plan ahead now especially as a 2 division Highland League is not acceptable to half the current clubs.

Not sure that all the village clubs not wanting to travel the breadth of the Highlands would agree that there is a "need" for restructuring to satisfy Banks O' Dee's aspirations.  The need should be driven by the clubs, not some political objective.  Changing the numbers in a league should also be the gift of the teams in that league.

[HibeeJibee]

No restructuring is needed.

[RedLichtie86]

Any league restructuring will need a certain amount of compromise from all sides for it to work.

The Highland League is maybe too big, or just right depending on who you talk too. What if it was reduced to a 14-16 team league? you will have more free weekends for regional cup games, replays and rescheduled games. Maybe introduce a 2nd tier to Highland League (10-16 teams) so clubs that drop down and clubs that want to move up can have a buffer between HL and Junior football. It would give Banks O'Dee the route they are looking for but not throw teams out of the Highland League. Would also solve the problem if Montrose, Elgin or Peterhead got relegated to make it a 19 team HL. The 2 Leagues can get bigger or smaller depending on the what happens. Some clubs may feel they want to drop down to juniors whilst others may wish to make the step up.

But maybe it might be an idea to think about allowing Colt/reserve teams in to bolster the numbers if there are not enough teams available. I believe Stranraer and Annan are looking to play reserve teams in the South of Scotland League next season. Would Aberdeen, Inverness, Ross County etc be interested in doing the same? Maybe the NCL teams may fancy the idea of joining the 2nd tier of the HL.

[Northboy]

Apart from Banks o Dee I don't see many teams with an obvious aspiration to join the Highland League. Not surprising given the geography and that many junior teams are already operating in an area where there is already an active Highland League team.

[calmac25]

Apart from Banks o Dee I don't see many teams with an obvious aspiration to join the Highland League. Not surprising given the geography and that many junior teams are already operating in an area where there is already an active Highland League team.

I'm not too familiar with North football but take Dufftown for an example. Aside from cost of installing floodlights what would be negative about them looking at the highland league?

They already travel reasonable distances and may reduce that in the HFL? Away crowd's will be next to nothing in the juniors? New derby with Rothes, bigger crowd's against Huntly, Buckie, Forres, Wick?

[Northboy]

29 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

I'm not too familiar with North football but take Dufftown for an example. Aside from cost of installing floodlights what would be negative about them looking at the highland league? They already travel reasonable distances and may reduce that in the HFL? Away crowd's will be next to nothing in the juniors? New derby with Rothes, bigger crowd's against Huntly, Buckie, Forres, Wick?

But are Dufftown, or anyone else, seriously looking to join the Highland League?

[calmac25]

But are Dufftown, or anyone else, seriously looking to join the Highland League?

I've no idea!

[Highland Capital]

Didn't Halkirk United once announce they were interested in joining the Highland League?  I'm sure they did.

[calmac25]

Didn't Halkirk United once announce they were interested in joining the Highland League?  I'm sure they did.

 

From 2013

 

http://www.johnogroat-journal.co.uk/News/Wraps-to-be-taken-off-new-Halkirk-football-pitch-12072013.htm

 

Manson said the club’s main aim is to join Wick Academy in the Highland Football League and with an introduction of a pyramid system believed it could become a reality.

 

He said the ambition of the club matches the ambitions for the village as a whole.

 

“At the end of the day, our main aim is to be invited into the Highland League. We have to be asked to join but with the new pyramid system and having a stadium in place, we think our chances have improved,” he said.

 

 

 

[Cyclizine]

On 5/24/2017 at 22:16, Robert James said:

Plan ahead now especially as a 2 division Highland League is not acceptable to half the current clubs.

I think there has already been a decision at an AGM a couple of years ago to split the league should they reach 20 clubs, i.e. they'd run with 19 if one club came down. I wonder if there'd be any pressure to take in Banks o' Dee (or even Golspie...) if that happened to make a round 20.

[HibeeJibee]

To be accurate the vote was they would split at 21: season would be no longer with 20 clubs than with 19 (in both cases 38 matchdays). However the clubs that lost the vote threw all their toys out of the pram and claimed they'd breakaway and form a rival league if it went beyond 18, although little seems to have been heard of that since.

BoD, Halkirk and Aberdeen Uni are the "usual suspects" in the press whenever there is talk of new clubs coming onboard.

[Northboy]

6 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

To be accurate the vote was they would split at 21: season would be no longer with 20 clubs than with 19 (in both cases 38 matchdays). However the clubs that lost the vote threw all their toys out of the pram and claimed they'd breakaway and form a rival league if it went beyond 18, although little seems to have been heard of that since.

BoD, Halkirk and Aberdeen Uni are the "usual suspects" in the press whenever there is talk of new clubs coming onboard.

Any thoughts in the size of the respective divisions? As an absolute minimum we might get away with 12 teams in each but even that requires 6 new teams. I still don't think that the demand is there but in may unavoidable if one or more teams comes down from the SPFL (assuming that they are not simultaneously replaced by a Highland League team).