Highland League restructuring

[LongTimeLurker]

14 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

I don't think BoD have ever actually applied to join the HFL since they gained their licence, ...

Is there a process for doing so in the absence of a vacancy given its a closed shop? BoD made it clear in a survey distributed by the SFA/SJFA when the "pyramid" was being put together that they were interested in progression into the SPFL. Given very few junior clubs did that at the time it's ironic that they have no viable pathway for doing so, but I guess that suits Cove Rangers just fine and a lot of the dynamic on how the reorganization of the league structure unfolded was driven by them having one of the top SFA blazers...

[Cyclizine]

Is there a process for doing so in the absence of a vacancy given its a closed shop? BoD made it clear in a survey distributed by the SFA/SJFA when the "pyramid" was being put together that they were interested in progression into the SPFL. Given very few junior clubs did that at the time it's ironic that they have no viable pathway for doing so, but I guess that suits Cove Rangers just fine and a lot of the dynamic on how the reorganization of the league structure unfolded was driven by them having one of the top SFA blazers...

I don't think there is a process - but I would think if BoD wanted to make a fuss about it then the SFA would have to take notice, it's too big an anomaly to ignore. What the outcome of that would be I have no clue, but if it was just one team then I'd've thought running with 19 teams, similar to if a North of Tay side came down from SPFL2. There's also the plan to split at 20 teams, but who knows.

[LongTimeLurker]

So basically we are back where we started. The Highland League clubs were not keen to join the so called pyramid and only a small minority have any interest in promotion, so the SFA probably let them keep their closed shop so they could create the appearance of a pyramid but not its substance.

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

So basically we are back where we started. The Highland League clubs were not keen to join the so called pyramid and only a small minority have any interest in promotion, so the SFA probably let them keep their closed shop so they could create the appearance of a pyramid but not its substance.

That's not entirely true, the original proposal was to have a so-called Highland Regional League separate from the HFL  as the feeder to the SPFL . Interested teams could apply to join this league . The HFL decided that they wanted to be the feeder league in their own right, only Buckie voted against. There may have  been clubs against relegation/promotion, but they voted for the pyramid, whether the SFA ever call the HFL out on it is another matter...

[Robert James]

11 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Is there a process for doing so in the absence of a vacancy given its a closed shop? BoD made it clear in a survey distributed by the SFA/SJFA when the "pyramid" was being put together that they were interested in progression into the SPFL. Given very few junior clubs did that at the time it's ironic that they have no viable pathway for doing so, but I guess that suits Cove Rangers just fine and a lot of the dynamic on how the reorganization of the league structure unfolded was driven by them having one of the top SFA blazers...

Banks O'Dee are believed to still want HFL membership, but their application was unsuccessful when they applied for one of the 3 vacancies (the HFL was expanded from 16 to 18 clubs.

If Cove win the HFL championship this season, and are successful in  winning the Lowland/SPFL play-offs, it would be legally unwise and morally wrong, if BoD FC was not elected to replace Rangers in the HFL, even though the SFA wants to reduce the HFL to 16 clubs (again)..  

[EdTheDuck]

10 hours ago, Robert James said:

Banks O'Dee are believed to still want HFL membership, but their application was unsuccessful when they applied for one of the 3 vacancies (the HFL was expanded from 16 to 18 clubs.

If Cove win the HFL championship this season, and are successful in  winning the Lowland/SPFL play-offs, it would be legally unwise and morally wrong, if BoD FC was not elected to replace Rangers in the HFL, even though the SFA wants to reduce the HFL to 16 clubs (again)..  

Why would the SFA want to reduce the HFL to 16 teams?

[EdTheDuck]

21 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

I don't think there is a process - but I would think if BoD wanted to make a fuss about it then the SFA would have to take notice, it's too big an anomaly to ignore. What the outcome of that would be I have no clue, but if it was just one team then I'd've thought running with 19 teams, similar to if a North of Tay side came down from SPFL2. There's also the plan to split at 20 teams, but who knows.

The process is quite simple

Banks o Dee apply to join and the Aberdeenshire clubs reject it.

 

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, EdTheDuck said:

The process is quite simple

Banks o Dee apply to join and the Aberdeenshire clubs reject it.

 

Aye, undoubtedly, this is what would happen - I do wonder what would happen if BoD appealed to the SFA though: they've not had to publicly announce anything regarding access to the pyramid in the North yet.

[Jimmy Shaker]

14 hours ago, Robert James said:

the SFA wants to reduce the HFL to 16 clubs (again)..  

Say what now?

[Cyclizine]

Say what now?

First I've heard of it

[stanley]

15 hours ago, Robert James said:

Banks O'Dee are believed to still want HFL membership, but their application was unsuccessful when they applied for one of the 3 vacancies (the HFL was expanded from 16 to 18 clubs.

If Cove win the HFL championship this season, and are successful in  winning the Lowland/SPFL play-offs, it would be legally unwise and morally wrong, if BoD FC was not elected to replace Rangers in the HFL, even though the SFA wants to reduce the HFL to 16 clubs (again)..  

Expanded from 15 to 18 clubs.  Formartine, Turriff and Strathspey elected.  Banks O'Dee missed out.

[Highland Capital]

When Banks O'Dee missed out, did they not contact the Lord Lyon about Formartine United's badge?  Seemed a bit sour grapes to me if that's true.

[Jimmy Shaker]

2 hours ago, Highland Capital said:

When Banks O'Dee missed out, did they not contact the Lord Lyon about Formartine United's badge?  Seemed a bit sour grapes to me if that's true.

Someone did. Pinning it on BOD is a bit much tho. 

But then it happened to Formartine and everyone found it hilarious. 

[Highland Capital]

That was what was reported at the time, was it not?  That it was somebody involved with BoD?

[Northboy]

11 hours ago, Highland Capital said:

That was what was reported at the time, was it not?  That it was somebody involved with BoD?

If BoD were involved I have no recollection of that being mentioned at the time. I'd be surprised if BoD has a heraldry expert in their midst.

[Jimmy Shaker]

The thread on Fitba North has someone from Formartine blaming someone with a grudge, but at no point were BOD implicated. 

They'd the hump with Cove, that much was true. 

[Kernovian]

On 11/15/2017 at 10:33, gwd440 said:

Some years ago on the NonLeague Matters Forum, somebody came up with an innovative idea to restructure the Conference North & South divisions to reduce travelling while maintaining fairness and a reasonable number of matches.

The idea was too revolutionary for the majority of posters, and obviously it was never picked up, but a few of us thought it had merit.

The main objection was that it 'looked at bit like the American NFL Conference model', and a few people couldn't get their head round having a 42 team league table.

However it occurred to me that it might have some value if applied to an enlarged 20 team Highland League.

 

In the original idea, 42 teams were split into 6 geographic sectors of 7 teams. Teams would play all the teams in their own sector and those in the two other nearest sectors.

 

Highland League geography doesn't help to replicate this perfectly, and would lead to some groupings being much stronger than others. Instead of geographic sectors, I had a go at producing 4 groups of equal strength, based on last seasons league placings.

In my example I've promoted Banks o'Dee and relegated Montrose (sorry Montrose).  As they've just been promoted, I've ranked BoD as the weakest team, which I know is somewhat unrealistic.

So the groupings could be:

A  Montrose, Turriff Utd, Keith, Nairn County, Rothes

B  Buckie Thistle, Formartine Utd, Clachnacuddin, Huntly, Fort William

C  Cove Rangers, Fraserburgh, Wick Academy, Deveronvale, Strathspey Thistle

D  Brora Rangers, Forres Mechanics, Inverurie Locos, Lossiemouth, Banks o'Dee

Each team plays against everyone in their own pool and everyone in two of the other pools.

So:

A would play B and D

B would play A and C

C would play B and D

D would play C and A

Teams would therefore play 8+10+10=28 matches.  

Results would go towards producing a 20 team league table (the groups are only used to produce a fixture list)

The system isn't perfect. One downside is that the odd tasty match wouldn't happen - e.g. in my example there would be no Montrose v Cove as A don't play against C. Also if there is an imbalance between the pools, then some teams may have a slight advantage by avoiding one or two of their rivals. Perhaps this imbalance could be ironed out with some end of season play off matches. Top 4 or top 8 maybe?  If this was the case, the champions would end up having played 30 or 31 matches, which I think is close to the ideal.

Anyway, that was the gist of the idea. I will now retreat to a safe distance.

 

 

 

 

It's quite likely that you're referring to one of my 'conferencing ideas' posts over on Non-League Matters, although several posters showed other, differing ideas, too. If that one was mine (I really don't recall very well), then that model wasn't the best one on show to suit the HL.

 

The model I'd choose would require 24 teams to produce a 34 match season, although a 20 team competition would also be feasible, producing a 28 match season.

 

Initially, the competitors are drawn into two equally sized conferences within the division. If these are geographically split, then there would likely be more derby matches than otherwise. Each conference plays a full H/A round robin and aside from usual competition for points and places, teams are particularly playing to achieve a top-half finish in order to qualify to a second 'top-half conference' which will then determine the championship. There'd also be a 'lower-half conference' created to determine any extant relegation places. I'd advocate some form of decent prize for the winners & runners-up in the lower competition, too. In both of these second conferences, the teams take forward only the match results played previously versus the teams they played in their own geographical conference that join the same second conference. (I've possibly 'over-egged' that last sentence?) - thus they now only need to play an H/A round robin against their previously unplayed opponents in their own second conference in order to complete their league season.

Certain advantages beyond just the derby match feature mentioned before include - Fully fair and balanced fixture schedule throughout; the accommodation of one-third more competitors for the same number of matches that a straight double round robin would produce; The 'promotion zone line' to qualify for the second conferences is set exactly on the half-way mark, ensuring that it's positioned bang centre in the league table's likely most volatile region, thus maximising teams' activity week-by-week to finish above the line & consequently spectator interest for more teams.

The only slight negative is public apprehension of the format, although that shouldn't be too hard in Scotland, where the Premiership already plays a similar if very much inferior model!  

[Jason King]

What premiership plays a similar model?

[EdTheDuck]

3 hours ago, Jason King said:

What premiership plays a similar model?

The Scottish Premiership

Except it doesn't

Not even a little bit similar.

At all

...

and "inferior"...LoL

[Unknown Fan]

This is an excerpt involving my idea of revamping the Scottish league structure that involves the Highland league region;

At the moment we have;

Level	League(s)/Division(s)
4	Scottish League Two (Ladbrokes League Two) 10 clubs playing 36 games
5	Highland Football League (Press & Journal Highland League) 18 clubs playing 34 games			Lowland Football League (Ferrari Packaging Lowland League) 16 clubs playing 30 games
6	North Caledonian Football League (Not incorporated) 9 clubs playing 16 games

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_league_system 

So that is for now;

42 SPFL clubs

34 Level 5 clubs (All SFA Licence holders)

37 Level 6 clubs (SFA licence not required to enter league though then no Scottish Cup entry without)

So at present the Scottish Pyramid there is a total of 113 Senior clubs including North Caly League (Only Golspie have SFA Licence)

Over the 3 Junior regions there are 158 clubs West 64, East 60 and North 34 over 11 divisions from next year.

Junior clubs can no longer obtain a SFA licence if they remain within the Junior league structure.  Linlithgow & Banks o'Dee being the clever ones, Girvan too.

My proposed revamp;

League(s)/Division(s)
2	Scottish Championship 14 clubs playing 38 games Playing each other twice 26 games then split 7/7 and play each other twice 12 games  Top 2 promoted 3rd to 5th in playoff with 12th in premiership.  12th plays 5th, 3rd plays 4th, 2 legs, one game final.
3	Northern Scottish National                                                                                                                                       Southern Scottish National  16 Clubs playing each other once 15 games in each the Northern and Southern league first half of season (32 Clubs) The 32 clubs that would compete in these 2 regional leagues of 16 for the first half of the season would be made up of 4 bottom teams Current League One, 10 from League Two, top 10 from Highland league and top 8 from the current Lowland league.  The Tay boundary line would be flexible, hence the Angus, Dundee or Perthshire clubs if in level 3 would possibly play Northern one year Southern the next depending of the demographic of the 32 clubs Scottish National League Top 8 in each league then go on to play at a national level 16 club league in the 2nd half of the season playing each other once.   16 clubs playing a 30 game season   (15 games in regional first half 15 in national 2nd half) Points gained against bottom 8 cleared, points gained against top 8 carried over from first half of season. top 2 promoted 3rd to 5th play off for possible promotion with 12th in Championship
4	Northern Scottish National                                                                                                               Southern Scottish National 16 clubs playing 15 games from first half of season in level 3 above in their regional leagues. The bottom 8 teams in each league would remain regional and play in leagues of 8 to see which teams would get relegated to level 5. The points gained against top 8 clubs from first half of season would be carried over.  The Northern and Southern 2 separate leagues of 8 would then play each other twice 14 games 29 game total 2 clubs relegated possible playoffs too with 3rd bottom and teams finishing 2nd & 3rd in level 5 leagues    All clubs at this level and above have SFA Licenses only able to gain access by being top of regional league
5	Highland league Northern and Southern 2 regional leagues of 14 clubs in each league 26 games total The Highland Northern would be teams from North Caly plus any other clubs from the bottom of the current highland league/northern juniors that are within Highland Council boundary possible parts of Moray too.  The Southern league clubs in bottom half of current Highland league, Northern Juniors and East junior region north of Tay boundary line			Lowland Football League East and West 2 regional leagues of 14 clubs in each league 26 games total the make up of the 28 clubs at this level would be 8 clubs from bottom half of Lowland league The best of East and West juniors looking to progress in the pyramid Best of Southern and East of Scotland league
6	North Caledonian league 2nd division if required   North Juniors Top division East Junior Region Top Division Clubs North of the Tay boundary line

So with this new system we have;

44 Clubs Levels 1-3 playing at a national level an increase of 2.

Though Level 3-4 (32 clubs 2 leagues of 16 play regional for the first half of the season)

Level 4 SFA licensing is required (16 clubs 2 leagues of 8 2nd half of season)

So 60 clubs are in leagues Levels 1-4 with compulsory SFA licensing.

Level 3-4  (32 Clubs) play each other max of 3 times each.  Stronger clubs each season can go to play at national level and possible promotion to Championship each season.  This league set up at level 3-4 would make sure the strongest teams would be entering the Championship each season regardless of region.

Clubs at Level 5 (56 clubs) have quicker possible access to higher levels and so bigger incentive for Junior clubs / association to join the pyramid.  

So there would be 116 clubs at Levels 1-5 in structured leagues.

1. 14

2. 14

3. 16

4. 16(8,8)     60 clubs total levels 1-4

5. 14-14-14-14   56 clubs

This would be an increase of 3 clubs compared to the 113 clubs in levels 1-6 at the moment.

The Northern Highland Level 5 league on paper would be considerably weaker than the other 3 level 5 leagues though covering a large area and localising travel for the weaker outlying Highland league teams.  Wick, Fort William possibly among their stronger teams.  Little need for any access below this level in this region apart for aspirational amateur teams from the region or Summer league select teams (possible Skye & Lochalsh) 

So more regional leagues, less Annan vs Elgin Christmas cracker derbies and more likely for Junior league clubs to take part. 

Less travel for smaller clubs and more local derbies.    

My logic is that any club with an average of less than 1,000 attendance shouldn't be playing at a national level.

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Also many of the Clubs in North Caly, South of Scotland and East of Scotland league are nowhere near as developed or supported as top Junior clubs especially in the East and West Juniors.

http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/

Besides all of that for Scottish teams overall to be any force in Europe again a March to November Summer league should be introduced.

Your thoughts, good idea?