Liverpool City Council Ban FOBTs In Betting Shops

[NotThePars]

Yup. They don't want to help anyone out, which is why the suggestions made earlier in this thread (page or so ago) would have never even been discussed. They don't take any action unless forced to.
Also there comes a point where jobs aren't worth lives. So if a few folk unfortunately lose their jobs then it's a price worth paying. They don't need to lose their jobs of course, but folk in charge won't be making as big a profit (they'll still of course be making a huge profit) overall, so they'd rather fire folk than lose a wee bit of money they don't need.

Job losses were the only moral justification the bookies had. People just aren’t particularly convinced by the idea that it’s fine to have rigged gaming machines on every high street and in schemes.

[19QOS19]

I think you'll find that gambling addicts and drug addicts have very similar pathways and deficiencies, the only part that is different is the come down, people have this weird notion that giving up gambling is easy because you're putting nothing in your body and drugs are hard to kick because the opposite is true, that may well be fairly accurate in the early years of addiction but it's not the case after decades of abuse.

 

I don't think anyone has claimed gambling isn't a serious addiction. It will obviously ve difficult to stop as well. But whether you like it or not it's just scientific fact that on top of the psychological addiction, substance addiction carries a physical addiction as well. Both addictions will have severe psychological aspects but unlike a gambling addiction, heroin addiction has the added bonus of hooking the 'victim' physically as well so of course it's harder to come off.

 

Again though, it wasn't my original point, my point was that heroin abusers will take the stuff even if there aren't adverts for it at every turn, the same way gamblers will continue to gamble if advertising was banned.

 

[ayrmad]

6 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

I don't think anyone has claimed gambling isn't a serious addiction. It will obviously ve difficult to stop as well. But whether you like it or not it's just scientific fact that on top of the psychological addiction, substance addiction carries a physical addiction as well. Both addictions will have severe psychological aspects but unlike a gambling addiction, heroin addiction has the added bonus of hooking the 'victim' physically as well so of course it's harder to come off.

 

Again though, it wasn't my original point, my point was that heroin abusers will take the stuff even if there aren't adverts for it at every turn, the same way gamblers will continue to gamble if advertising was banned.

 

The relapse rates are fairly similar, it's only the come down part that I see as different, a long term complusive gamblers brain is addicted to gambling, what part of that isn't physical?

Further evidence that gambling and drugs change the brain in similar ways surfaced in an unexpected group of people: those with the neurodegenerative disorder Parkinson's disease. Characterized by muscle stiffness and tremors, Parkinson's is caused by the death of dopamine-producing neurons in a section of the midbrain. Over the decades researchers noticed that a remarkably high number of Parkinson's patients—between 2 and 7 percent—are compulsive gamblers. 

[Co.Down Hibee]

2 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

I just feel we seem to live in a state where folk refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. I briefly worked in a bookies so I'm aware of the money folk would plow into the machines but I don't get the public outrage at these things. It's a bookies and the majority of the folk entering the shops are going to lose money one way or another, in the same way the majority of folk entering a pub are going to get pished. A similar situation is the covering of tobacco products - those bad shops advertising products, how dare they! Get them covered. The next step will be to cover the pumps in a pub.

 

To an extent I agree,I'm not a huge fan of policies which are ultimately meaning "we know what's best and we'll make decisions for you"... basically because they tend to be a bit selective and absolve personal responsibility.Although it should have some form of regulation in place as this is obviously a growing concern.A poster earlier listed some excellent points which could be put in place which wouldn't take too much out of the industry.

Idon't really blame the bookies because their business is to make money from gambling,pure and simple,the first rule In any business is to target your customers which is what they've done. Opening a bookies with these machines near an estate or on a high street is no worse than an ice cream van parking next to a playpark. Bookmakers are not responsible for the social wellbeing of the population of this country. They have acted within the laws and legislation that is in place currently. This demonising of them is misguided IMO.

 

 

[19QOS19]

The relapse rates are fairly similar, it's only the come down part that I see as different, a long term complusive gamblers brain is addicted to gambling, what part of that isn't physical?
Further evidence that gambling and drugs change the brain in similar ways surfaced in an unexpected group of people: those with the neurodegenerative disorder Parkinson's disease. Characterized by muscle stiffness and tremors, Parkinson's is caused by the death of dopamine-producing neurons in a section of the midbrain. Over the decades researchers noticed that a remarkably high number of Parkinson's patients—between 2 and 7 percent—are compulsive gamblers. 

The comedown is the physical part. A heroin addict will suffer real physical side effects if they didn't get a hit in a couple of days. A gamblers would be purely psychologic.

[Herman Hessian]

6 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I don't think anyone has claimed gambling isn't a serious addiction. It will obviously ve difficult to stop as well. But whether you like it or not it's just scientific fact that on top of the psychological addiction, substance addiction carries a physical addiction as well. Both addictions will have severe psychological aspects but unlike a gambling addiction, heroin addiction has the added bonus of hooking the 'victim' physically as well so of course it's harder to come off.

Again though, it wasn't my original point, my point was that heroin abusers will take the stuff even if there aren't adverts for it at every turn, the same way gamblers will continue to gamble if advertising was banned.

the gambling thing is not all that different IMO as the betting companies have big budgets for researching, understanding and exploiting the mechanisms that impel compulsive gamblers to pursue their addiction - they deliberately set out to psychologically reel them in and are therefore utterly  complicit in the misery that is inflicted on their "victims" in the same way as the dealers who supply the drugs; the machines are designed and programmed to "press all the right buttons" in the minds of the players to keep them playing when every common sense indicator should be screaming at them to stop, with very carefully balanced risk/reward ratios, subliminal indicators and the like - and that's on top of the welcoming environment that's provided; it's little more than deliberate entrapment orchestrated by cynical hypocrites, and is fucking evil - probably....

i've always assumed that the only reason it's not been clamped down upon before now is the vast tax revenue that's generated, lobbying by the betting companies and massive "donations" to sundry political causes - no real idea why it's all changed so suddenly - anyone ???

[19QOS19]

the gambling thing is not all that different IMO as the betting companies have big budgets for researching, understanding and exploiting the mechanisms that impel compulsive gamblers to pursue their addiction - they deliberately set out to psychologically reel them in and are therefore utterly  complicit in the misery that is inflicted on their "victims" in the same way as the dealers who supply the drugs; the machines are designed and programmed to "press all the right buttons" in the minds of the players to keep them playing when every common sense indicator should be screaming at them to stop, with very carefully balanced risk/reward ratios, subliminal indicators and the like - and that's on top of the welcoming environment that's provided; it's little more than deliberate entrapment orchestrated by cynical hypocrites, and is fucking evil - probably....
i've always assumed that the only reason it's not been clamped down upon before now is the vast tax revenue that's generated, lobbying by the betting companies and massive "donations" to sundry political causes - no real idea why it's all changed so suddenly - anyone ???

It's of course money, as you say. If the country didn't make so much money from alcohol it would surely be banned. It's the deadliest drug we have in our society.

[coprolite]

I can't believe that people can put £2 in a puggy for just one shot, never mind more than that.

I get palpitations watching my kids roll 2ps into the pushers at the seaside, it's such a waste of money.

why would people want the opportunity to lose money quicker?

Jobs is a shit excuse as these people can be re-employed doing something more socially beneficial, like selling smack.

[ayrmad]

19 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

 

The comedown is the physical part. A heroin addict will suffer real physical side effects if they didn't get a hit in a couple of days. A gamblers would be purely psychologic.

 

 

Nah, there's far more happening physiologically than just that part, if all the addictions were studied after all the chemical traces were away then gambling should have a lower relapse rate than all the chemical drugs that people take, that's not the case, heroin is on a different level to most drugs when it come to high relapse rates, gambling runs it close, I'm assuming gambling and heroin must f**k up and or alter similar parts of the brain.

[ayrmad]

9 minutes ago, coprolite said:

I can't believe that people can put £2 in a puggy for just one shot, never mind more than that.

I get palpitations watching my kids roll 2ps into the pushers at the seaside, it's such a waste of money.

why would people want the opportunity to lose money quicker?

Jobs is a shit excuse as these people can be re-employed doing something more socially beneficial, like selling smack.

I'd assume it's for the high you don't get in normal life.

[19QOS19]

Nah, there's far more happening physiologically than just that part, if all the addictions were studied after all the chemical traces were away then gambling should have a lower relapse rate than all the chemical drugs that people take, that's not the case, heroin is on a different level to most drugs when it come to high relapse rates, gambling runs it close, I'm assuming gambling and heroin must f**k up and or alter similar parts of the brain.

 

I'm not disputing that. I'm saying there are no physical withdrawals. I'm happy to be proven wrong if you can find some evidence, but I doubt you will.

 

 

 

[ayrmad]

I would think quite a few of the moderate and severe symptoms(the mental ones) will have been suffered by gamblers in the early days of stopping.

Mild withdrawal symptoms:

• Nausea
• Abdominal cramps
• Tearing
• Runny nose
• Sweats
• Chills
• Yawning a lot
• Muscle and bone aches

Moderate withdrawal symptoms:

• Vomiting
• Diarrhea
• Agitation
• Restlessness
• Tremors
• Trouble concentrating
• Goose bumps
• Fatigue

Severe withdrawal symptoms:

• Anxiety
• Insomnia
• Depression
• Hypertension
• Rapid heart rate
• Muscle spasms
• Impaired respiration
• Difficulty feeling pleasure
• Drug cravings

I was different, I suffered quite a few of them while I was in the throws of gambling, a weight lifted from my shoulders as soon as I went through the door at GA, in my experience long term cessation is dependant on what you do after the initial few weeks.

 

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, ayrmad said:

I think you'll find that gambling addicts and drug addicts have very similar pathways and deficiencies, the only part that is different is the come down,

No they don't; the lack of a 'comedown' being a pretty clear physical indicator that a directly addictive substance has not been used in the case of gambling.

Quote

people have this weird notion that giving up gambling is easy because you're putting nothing in your body and drugs are hard to kick because the opposite is true, that may well be fairly accurate in the early years of addiction but it's not the case after decades of abuse.

Nobody claimed that it was easy, but it is absolutely easier to end an addiciton to gambling than being directly chemically dependent on substances like heroin. Addiction like most things operates on a sliding  scale and gambling is near the bottom. 

If pseudo-scientific bullshit of GA and other groups to the contrary helps stop people spunking their money on shite then I guess it has a net positive effect, but it has no real basis in fact. The experience of problem gamblers is not even remotely equatable to the experience of users of serious chemical substances like heroin. 

 

[19QOS19]

I would think quite a few of the moderate and severe symptoms(the mental ones) will have been suffered by gamblers in the early days of stopping.

Mild withdrawal symptoms:

• Nausea
• Abdominal cramps
• Tearing
• Runny nose
• Sweats
• Chills
• Yawning a lot
• Muscle and bone aches

Moderate withdrawal symptoms:

• Vomiting
• Diarrhea
• Agitation
• Restlessness
• Tremors
• Trouble concentrating
• Goose bumps
• Fatigue

Severe withdrawal symptoms:

• Anxiety
• Insomnia
• Depression
• Hypertension
• Rapid heart rate
• Muscle spasms
• Impaired respiration
• Difficulty feeling pleasure
• Drug cravings

I was different, I suffered quite a few of them while I was in the throws of gambling, a weight lifted from my shoulders as soon as I went through the door at GA, in my experience long term cessation is dependant on what you do after the initial few weeks.

 

 

 

Is this you're opinion or evidence-based research?

 

[ayrmad]

1 minute ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

 

Is this you're opinion or evidence-based research?

 

No, it's based on listening to thousands of people at GA meetings.

[19QOS19]

Your opinion then.

 

 

[ICTChris]

Is there any evidence that FOBTs have caused the number of problem gamblers to rise?  

[ayrmad]

9 minutes ago, virginton said:

No they don't; the lack of a 'comedown' being a pretty clear physical indicator that a directly addictive substance has not been used in the case of gambling.

Nobody claimed that it was easy, but it is absolutely easier to end an addiciton to gambling than being directly chemically dependent on substances like heroin. Addiction like most things operates on a sliding  scale and gambling is near the bottom. 

If pseudo-scientific bullshit of GA and other groups to the contrary helps stop people spunking their money on shite then I guess it has a net positive effect, but it has no real basis in fact. The experience of problem gamblers is not even remotely equatable to the experience of users of serious chemical substances like heroin. 

 

Produce the results that show gambling being near the bottom of the sliding scale. 

Do addictions to all drugs have a comedown worth talking about?

GAScotland don't do psuedo-scientific bullshit, they tend to concentrate on how to stop and how to stay stopped.

[SweeperDee]

Nobody claimed that it was easy, but it is absolutely easier to end an addiciton to gambling than being directly chemically dependent on substances like heroin. Addiction like most things operates on a sliding  scale and gambling is near the bottom. 
If pseudo-scientific bullshit of GA and other groups to the contrary helps stop people spunking their money on shite then I guess it has a net positive effect, but it has no real basis in fact. The experience of problem gamblers is not even remotely equatable to the experience of users of serious chemical substances like heroin. 
 

Those with gambling addictions are more prone to cortisol toxicity, which of course affects the heart and other vital organs in the body, which can lead to an early death. You can highlight the chemical difference of course with drugs, because you’re injecting foreign chemicals into the body. The dopamine-reward system is still kicking in though, regardless of what the individual is addicted to. Physical and Mental addictions share the same pathway in the brain; it’s irrefutable.

[welshbairn]

12 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

Your opinion then.

 

 

Quote

Professor Mark Griffiths of Nottingham Trent University found that gamblers unable to feed their habit suffer from moodiness, irritability, nausea, stomach cramps, and sweats. "These are real effects," Griffiths said. "Gamblers have withdrawal symptoms like drug addicts."
Griffiths, who has spent the last 20 years studying the minds of compulsive gamblers, believes that many of the key features of crack, heroin, alcohol, and nicotine addiction also apply to problem gamblers. For example, a gambling addiction tends to dominate a person's mind, leading to cravings and a complete preoccupation with the habit. They also build up a tolerance to their habit, leading to a need to increase their 'fix' over time.

https://www.algamus.org/blog/gambling-withdrawal