Sons' sorrow

[O'Kelly Isley III]

2 hours ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

I've been thinking about this a lot, and I've ended up putting it into Monopoly terms. At the moment we're scrabbling together the money for a studio flat on Bond Street. We don't get a lot for our money, but the location is secure and if we end up dropping out next season (as in relegated this time next year) then we should have a bit of time in Leicester Square to get things in order.

If we do go down now though then we should have enough for a comfortable standard of living in Euston Road, but lurking over our shoulder is Old Kent Road (or the wrong end of League Two in this bizarre metaphor) and so we really can't afford a bad choice of management/poor squad or any more turmoil.

That reads like a Carlos Carvalhal press conference, so I'll summarise: If we stay up then it buys us more time off the park, even if the product on the park will be miserable. If we go down then we might be less stretched financially (and produce something better on the park) but it comes with the risk that we're closer to the abyss that is League Two should things start to go wrong - which has to be a serious possibility.

Whatever happens over the coming three weeks we're going to be in a difficult situation, so we might as well strap ourselves in, get behind the team and see where we end up. Either way it could be a total disaster, or work out alright.

  Reveal hidden contents

I can't believe I'm actually posting this. I've had my brain scrambled by an essay I'm working on at the minute, and I'm just hammering letters into my keyboard (no change to the usual then, eh?)

 

Is this not the board game you are needing So8 ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cephalofair-Games-CPH0201-Gloomhaven-English/dp/B01LZXVN4P

[Robbiem1872]

1 hour ago, BallochSonsFan said:

Dropping down means a big drop in income. It doesn't necessarily mean we could sign a competitive squad on significantly lower wages. It wouldn't cost us less to run the club on a day to day basis and we still have remedial work to be addressed at some point.

A new board may well help us improve our revenue from commercial activities but the drop in SPFL money isn't insignificant.

Can we do It? Yes, but it would take serious change.

Is it potentially a difficult position for the club to operate from? Undoubtedly.

Has anyone ever questioned the board why they are scamming the youth of the local area in expecting them to pay £12 for under 16s ticket to watch a mediocre team getting destroyed (most of the time) which from personal experience this season know I cannot to pay often yet travelled to QOS and livi and they only charge £5 for under 16s which is very reasonable and can compete in this league. 

[GoTeamGaz]

I imagine the answer is because the those clubs offset the money lost on ticket sales against the increase in pies/juice/mars bars that Dumbarton can't do because, I believe, the concession leaser pays a flat fee each year. (obviously that shifts the question on to why did they set it up like that in the first place but that's the answer I think)

[Howlin' Wilf]

I don't think anyone can with any certainty, predict what's going to happen next season regardless of whether the club stays in the Championship or starts 2018-19 in League One. I'm inclined to agree with OKI that relegation might be the preferable route and I'm pretty sure that would be the collective board view at this stage. A board member said to me the week before the Irn Bru final, that the money for that would "see us through to the end of the season". The club is living hand to mouth and tbh whilst it is hard to see where a budget will come from to compete in League 1, it's pretty impossible to see where the money will come from to compete in the Championship with the attendant maintenance issues that require attention.

We may all be living in a fool's paradise here. There has not been a profit and loss sheet issued to shareholders for something like 15 years. There hasn't been an AGM for years either. The club hide behind being a company with a turnover of under £2 million which allows them to withhold most relevant information. Having purchased the accounts, the only comfort I can give is that the overdraft at May 2017 was under £10,000 - down from over £33,000 on the previous year. This might be significant and might not - it depends on the debtors/creditors balance (due within one year) which were £140,000 and £146,000 respectively. TBH none of that means very much and I'm sure that Frank Meade, being an accountant has done a decent job in fulfilling the legal stuff.

Paul Reilly was elected secretary on 31/03/2018 and Les Hope resigned on 10/04/2018

The accounts for May 2018 will not be published until next year.

[Skyline Drifter]

21 minutes ago, GoTeamGaz said:

I imagine the answer is because the those clubs offset the money lost on ticket sales against the increase in pies/juice/mars bars that Dumbarton can't do because, I believe, the concession leaser pays a flat fee each year. (obviously that shifts the question on to why did they set it up like that in the first place but that's the answer I think)

Nope, our food is on rent to a concession holder too.

[Skyline Drifter]

Just now, Howlin' Wilf said:

We may all be living in a fool's paradise here. There has not been a profit and loss sheet issued to shareholders for something like 15 years. There hasn't been an AGM for years either. The club hide behind being a company with a turnover of under £2 million which allows them to withhold most relevant information. Having purchased the accounts, the only comfort I can give is that the overdraft at May 2017 was under £10,000 - down from over £33,000 on the previous year. This might be significant and might not - it depends on the debtors/creditors balance (due within one year) which were £140,000 and £146,000 respectively. TBH none of that means very much and I'm sure that Frank Meade, being an accountant has done a decent job in fulfilling the legal stuff.

Small companies can take advantage of reduced public disclosure. A small company is any one which satisfies any two of the following three criteria: turnover below £10.2m, gross assets below £5.1m, under 50 employees. However, it's fairly unusual not to issue accounts with more full detail to the shareholders directly. Shareholders have a right under the Companies Act to inspect the company books directly if they want.

You don't need to purchase accounts, they are available for free from Companies House. It's pretty clear from yours that (unless there was a dividend paid to shareholders which there presumably wasn't), you posted a loss of £47,000 last season.

[Howlin' Wilf]

22 minutes ago, GoTeamGaz said:

I imagine the answer is because the those clubs offset the money lost on ticket sales against the increase in pies/juice/mars bars that Dumbarton can't do because, I believe, the concession leaser pays a flat fee each year. (obviously that shifts the question on to why did they set it up like that in the first place but that's the answer I think)

I have a business involving catering and I know exactly why the club franchises the whole thing out. Firstly, it is the operator and not the club who has to comply with all food and hygiene regulations. This means keeping a record of the temperature of food sold, formulating a food handling policy and many other pieces of legislation. It means that the employment costs, holidays, pensions are the responsibility of the operator. Yes an 18 year old, employed for 2 hours per week will soon be entitled to a pension. It means that stock, stock rotation, VAT and other items are the responsibility of the operator and not the club.

The club, to run it themselves would have to employ a catering manager and have him administer all of the above. All for 20 minutes a fortnight, for nine months of the year, to sell mainly perishable food. I think the club is wise to avoid all that.

[Howlin' Wilf]

13 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Small companies can take advantage of reduced public disclosure. A small company is any one which satisfies any two of the following three criteria: turnover below £10.2m, gross assets below £5.1m, under 50 employees. However, it's fairly unusual not to issue accounts with more full detail to the shareholders directly. Shareholders have a right under the Companies Act to inspect the company books directly if they want.

You don't need to purchase accounts, they are available for free from Companies House. It's pretty clear from yours that (unless there was a dividend paid to shareholders which there presumably wasn't), you posted a loss of £47,000 last season.

I was going by the SME size reported as Micro  - less (sic) than ten employees or t/o under £2 million. How are you calculating that loss from the info available? There has been no profit and loss issued to shareholders, nor any AGM for years.

[BallochSonsFan]

3 hours ago, Robbiem1872 said:

Has anyone ever questioned the board why they are scamming the youth of the local area in expecting them to pay £12 for under 16s ticket to watch a mediocre team getting destroyed (most of the time) which from personal experience this season know I cannot to pay often yet travelled to QOS and livi and they only charge £5 for under 16s which is very reasonable and can compete in this league. 

Financial need.

Queen of the South are far stronger financially - bigger home support and better sponsorship. Livi? God alone knows because their crowds aren't that big.

Unfortunately when we have somewhere in the region of 600 home fans on a busy day? The club could reduce prices in the hope of attracting a bigger crowd but it would take hundreds more fans to improve income.

Take your £12 for under 16s as an example. For every 10 under 16s you get at £12 a head, you'd need 24 paying £5. You'd pretty much need to increase your under 16 support 2.5 times over.

Edited April 18, 2018 by BallochSonsFan

[The Moonster]

I believe we had an U16 season ticket available last season which worked out at a fiver a game and we sold single figures.  If people reacted to lower prices when they were on offer the prices would stay that way. They don't so the club looks to maximise from those who are willing to pay.

[Nowhereman]

For those who say relegation would be preferable to staying in the Champonship what would be the club's aim next season?

[sonsism]

15 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

For those who say relegation would be preferable to staying in the Champonship what would be the club's aim next season?

Consolidation. Stay within budget and stay competitive.

I'd honestly rather take finishing 8th in League 1 next season over one more season in the Championship where we get pumped off 9 full time teams (providing Ayr don't bottle the title) finish rock bottom and have Aitken reminding us that we're a part-time team after every breath.  We cannot sustain Championship football forever - without investment it's highly unlikely we'll return to it - it's been a hell of a ride but unfortunately the sun is setting.  From all accounts the club isn't in the best of health anyway, perhaps less financial pressure in League 1 would be a good thing for a few years. I'd rather we were League 1/2 diddies than spunk away our limited resources on trying to stay in the Championship for a few seasons and ending up in serious financial problems

I love a good away day to Forfar, Arbroath etc so looking forward to match days again would be lovely.

 

 

[Poet of the Macabre]

Fucking hell guys, the last few pages of this thread are bleak. 

I think the Dumbarton story over the past few seasons has been terrific and it's genuinely disheartening to see there's seemingly going to be no long-term benefit to the club.

[Skyline Drifter]

12 hours ago, sonsism said:

  From all accounts the club isn't in the best of health anyway, perhaps less financial pressure in League 1 would be a good thing for a few years. I'd rather we were League 1/2 diddies than spunk away our limited resources on trying to stay in the Championship for a few seasons and ending up in serious financial problems

I dont understand this part. How is there less financial pressure a League down? 10th in the Championship gets much better prize money than 1st in League 1 never mind what 8th in it gets. Presumably your gate income will drop. Away supports at least will be much lower and you probably wont be able to charge £20 in League 1. All of that surely makes for greater financial pressure. It would be a more even playing field granted but your playing budget would be bound to be slashed.

Edited April 19, 2018 by Skyline Drifter

[BallochSonsFan]

I dont understand this part. How is there less financial pressure a League down? 10th in the Championship gets much better prize money than 1st in League 1 never mind what 8th in it gets. Presumably your gate income will drop. Away supports at least will be much lower and you probably wont be able to charge £20 in League 1. All of thst surely makes for greater financial pressure. It would be a more even playing field granted but your playing budget would be bound fo be slashed.

There isn't.

Spfl money for 9th in the championship is £178000. For 2nd in league one that drops to £102,000. £76k drop.

Gate receipts - £20 for an adult would probably be unsustainable in league one. If prices dropped £4 across the board and away crowds dropped by an average of 200 per game from the current numbers we get in the league then you're looking at a drop in income of maybe £6000 per game. Over an 18 game season that takes another £110000 per season. How much would people pay to watch us in league one? Even a £2 drop to £18 per game is a drop of around £55k.

Reality of relegation for us is a financial hit of anything between £135,000 and £190,000.

Clearly we'd be looking to cut the wage bill for League One, but a £190,000 reduction in club income is a hell of a hole to try to plug through cost cutting and increased commercial activity. Even a drop of £135,000 is a big ask.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

I honestly don't understand how folk think relelgation will be a good thing. We wont be competing at the top end of the table and income will reduce dramatically.

There is literally no positive in being relegated other than potentially winning a few extra games. I'd take a Brechin esque season with more fininacial gain over relegation.

[Robbiem1872]

13 hours ago, The Moonster said:

I believe we had an U16 season ticket available last season which worked out at a fiver a game and we sold single figures.  If people reacted to lower prices when they were on offer the prices would stay that way. They don't so the club looks to maximise from those who are willing to pay.

Was that a one off payment however? Because if that was the case what under 16 year old do you know with £95 laying about haha, 

Imo dropping down to league one would not be devasting, if dumbarton are to take an overall look at the state of the clubs transfers and outgoings they are going from free agents to free agents which are demanding a lot of cash for pretty minimal work rate. If we did go down we could cut many of these wages and move to a more slim line first team with more youth playing like Kieran prior etc and if we saved enough dough on the wages there could be an opportunity to set up an under 21s team which would be give us something to fall back on if injuries and suspensions occur instead of getting emergency loans like Aidan Wilson for example. When it comes to ticket prices we would need to drop our prices to compete with other league one teams such as Alloa who charge £16 for an adult and raith rovers who charge £15 so if we were to drop to £15 it could attract more people in as they would be saving a fiver which they could then spend on food from the kiosks. The club needs to look into ways of how they can attract younger fans due to the fact the majority of dumbarton fans are over the age of 40, the atmosphere needs to be discussed( good atmosphere= more fans) young fans don’t want to sit on their hands twirling there thumbs watching football and activities which can be set up for the young kids. 

[pleslie99]

When does Stevies contract run out? Do we think he will still be with us next season regardless of what league we are in or could it depend on what FT jobs become available?

Also what, if any, players are signed up for next season on deals that extend beyond this season?
Over to you @sonsteamof08

[BallochSonsFan]

Robbie

It's not that long ago that it was £15 a time to get into Dumbarton games. Our home crowd was pretty static compared with this season. The extra 50 or 60 fans who might turn up wouldn't make up for the overall drop in income due to reduced numbers of away fans and a drop in ticket prices.

Relegation means taking at least a £120k hit. Maybe £180k. You don't run an under 21 team and build a competitive squad with that kind of hole in your finances.

[Jan Vojáček]

41 minutes ago, pleslie99 said:

When does Stevies contract run out? Do we think he will still be with us next season regardless of what league we are in or could it depend on what FT jobs become available?

Also what, if any, players are signed up for next season on deals that extend beyond this season?
Over to you @sonsteamof08

Mark Stewart has a two year deal - although I suspect it'll have a relegation break clause in it, because it did with Raith. According to his agent's Linkedin Mango signed a two-year deal, but the website reported it a single year, so I'd be more inclined to believe it. That's it though, so it'll be another full rebuild job in the summer (no bad thing with this squad imo).

Stevie's contract is up at the end of May 2019 - but who knows, maybe he'll have a break clause and want out, or maybe we'll have one and want shot. I think he'll stay unless: We get pumped in the playoffs (eg; Alloa 6-2 Dumbarton on aggregate), or the budget is slashed and he can only see it doing damage to his reputation - and sanity - trying to compete in either division next season.