Sons' sorrow

[sons'r'us]

Might as well copy and paste this from the facebook group:

It's a problem that isnt going to be addressed any time soon.

 

A crowd of 1000 fans at £20 per ticket brings in £20,000.

- If the club were to reduce prices to £18 per person, we'd need to get an extra 111 people through the doors in order to break even.

- At £15 per person we'd need an extra 333 fans attending games.

 

Clearly if you have the choice between selling 1000 tickets for a game and selling 1333 then you'd sell 1333. If the ticket revenue was identical then you still benefit from the better atmosphere that a bigger crowd generates and extra money from things like food, programme and 50/50 ticket sales. No business would deliberately price it's customers (I hate football fans being called customers but its the only word that really fits here) out of their market.

 

What happens if the club cut ticket costs to £18 and fall short 55 fans (around 50%)? We lose a thousand pounds every game compared to 1000 fans paying £20. Over the course of a season that's a significant amount towards somebody's wages.

 

At £15 per ticket and working to the same shortfall of around half of the break even number of fans? £2500 per week missing from club finances.

 

If we could guarantee that cutting costs would bring in more fans then it's a no brainer. Get more fans through the door. Get more people following Dumbarton. Hopefully start to see young fans coming along to games and getting hooked on Saturday afternoon football. We need to both retain the fans we have and attract new fans because it's a sad fact of life that we'll lose people to other priorities (get married, buy a house, have kids etc) or age/illness. We can't afford to lose anybody and we can'y simply rely on the crowd we have because that's a surefire way to a slow and painful demise.

 

But the risk of cutting prices if it doesnt help crowd numbers is that we'd lose anything from £18,000 to £35,000 a season in income on even moderately ambitious projections. Worst case scenario and a £15 ticket only attracts a couple of extra fans per game and we're losing some serious money.

 

Price is an issue for current fans. It's part of the reason that we're not attracting new fans. But we weren't attracting new fans when entry to games was £12 or £15 a shot and we were playing games we were reasonably thought to have a fighting chance of winning. We're in an area of high unemployment and relatively low wages, we have the Old Firm on our doorstep, we're losing people to other sports such as rugby or ice hockey and we've spent so long using the national press to tell everybody who'd listen that our game isnt worth following that - shock horror - a lot of people stopped caring about it.

 

I may have missed something here but it wasn't about cutting costs it was the increase in costs that caused the debate. So making the argument about how many more people we need if costs were reduced doesn't make sense to me. Unless the clubs model for the increased prices is tried and tested which I doubt it can be.

 

To me it's just finger in the air stuff and trying to squeeze as much as we can. At the start of the season the club hadn't stated which games would need to be all ticket so I'm guessing they weren't sure, so how can there be a costed strategy that we need to adhere to?

 

Maybe the club hazarded a guess but there would be various unknowns. One thing that has seemed to backfire is the reduction in season ticket sales. Add to that the expensive pay at the gate price and our home fan base will almost certainly be down which is a shame. I'm guessing the st.mirren game will have an even lower home gate due to the ticketing arrangements and prices.

 

[BallochSonsFan]

 
I may have missed something here but it wasn't about cutting costs it was the increase in costs that caused the debate. So making the argument about how many more people we need if costs were reduced doesn't make sense to me. Unless the clubs model for the increased prices is tried and tested which I doubt it can be.
 
To me it's just finger in the air stuff and trying to squeeze as much as we can. At the start of the season the club hadn't stated which games would need to be all ticket so I'm guessing they weren't sure, so how can there be a costed strategy that we need to adhere to?
 
Maybe the club hazarded a guess but there would be various unknowns. One thing that has seemed to backfire is the reduction in season ticket sales. Add to that the expensive pay at the gate price and our home fan base will almost certainly be down which is a shame. I'm guessing the st.mirren game will have an even lower home gate due to the ticketing arrangements and prices.
 

The issue is simple - why do Dumbarton charge so much for match entry?

The answer is simple - because it takes money to run the club with a team that has a fighting chance of staying up every year.

The difficult bit is why we can't attract enough fans to be able to charge lower prices or would fans willingly see us relegated in order to return to a level where we can charge lower prices because costs are lower?

Price is easy. We charge what we charge because it costs is what it costs us to run a Championship football club. There's no nice way of putting it. The less folk attend on match day then the more those who do attend have to pay to sustain the same level of football.

There are no big profits being made. No cash cows being milked. Our match day price reflects our crowd and what it takes to build a squad at this level.

[Nowhereman]

The way some people are going on about our prices would make you think that we are charging way above everyone else. The St Mirren game is likely to be the only £22 charge. The general price is £20 and only Livingston, QOS and Brechin don't have prices of £20 plus. As has been shown by Wilf we'll cover our costs if we're lucky but we're hardly going to make a profit. No-one has suggested how we could reduce our prices and remain at the same level. If you're happy to drop to League 2 or Lowland league then that's a different matter but if we want to try and stay in the Championship we have to pay the going rate.

[Jan Vojáček]

10 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

The way some people are going on about our prices would make you think that we are charging way above everyone else. The St Mirren game is likely to be the only £22 charge. The general price is £20 and only Livingston, QOS and Brechin don't have prices of £20 plus. As has been shown by Wilf we'll cover our costs if we're lucky but we're hardly going to make a profit. No-one has suggested how we could reduce our prices and remain at the same level. If you're happy to drop to League 2 or Lowland league then that's a different matter but if we want to try and stay in the Championship we have to pay the going rate.

And even they rip you a fiver for parking.

[George Parr]

32 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

if we want to try and stay in the Championship we have to pay the going rate.

My feeling is that an increasing number of supporters are going to say thanks but not thanks to this.

Tune back in when we drop a level, drop prices and stop being perennial underdog. 

[aftershocker]

8 minutes ago, Consolidate said:

My feeling is that an increasing number of supporters are going to say thanks but not thanks to this.

Tune back in when we drop a level, drop prices and stop being perennial underdog. 

you may be right...but in that case we would be as well chucking it....a football team should be trying to win every single match....we cannot get relegated then try to avoid promotion in case its too expensive

 

yes football is expensive...but have you looked at the costs of the alternatives recently? I went to the cinema the other night...1 1/2 hours entertainment...ticket was something like £11...then add in the drinks and popcorn....

[George Parr]

6 minutes ago, aftershocker said:

you may be right...but in that case we would be as well chucking it....a football team should be trying to win every single match....we cannot get relegated then try to avoid promotion in case its too expensive

 

yes football is expensive...but have you looked at the costs of the alternatives recently? I went to the cinema the other night...1 1/2 hours entertainment...ticket was something like £11...then add in the drinks and popcorn....

Should be clear - i'm not saying for a second that the team shouldn't be trying to win.

The cost of cinema entry actually looks pretty reasonable when you hold it up against entry to Dumbarton v St. Mirren!

 

 

[sergie's no1 fan]

17 minutes ago, aftershocker said:

you may be right...but in that case we would be as well chucking it....a football team should be trying to win every single match....we cannot get relegated then try to avoid promotion in case its too expensive

 

yes football is expensive...but have you looked at the costs of the alternatives recently? I went to the cinema the other night...1 1/2 hours entertainment...ticket was something like £11...then add in the drinks and popcorn....

When you're a young lad you live for Saturdays. Meeting your mates at the pub for opening time, either get the bus to an away game and see parts of the country you'd never normally see, or if its a home game stay in the pub till 2:50 then head over to the game. Then after go back to the boozer. You can easily spend £100+ on a match day, especially away from home. The football takes a back seat to the actual day out, if your team wins even better, if not you can still have a laugh.

Then when people get older, 2 adults + 2 kids plus food, drink & travel you are looking at £100 easily. If you/the partner/weans aren't enjoying whats on show, the weans or partner might think no f'ck that we'd rather go to the cinema/bowling/go karting instead and actually have fun. 

I suppose what I'm getting at is what are the clubs offering to keep people going back to the football? Pay £20+ to sit on a plastic seat watching lets be honest, not that good a standard,  also to be watched like a hawk by cctv cameras, stewards and police in case you misbehave.  

It's a problem facing every club in the UK but Scotland actually does well attendance wise per head of population. Imagine the stress of running a football club with the fine margins, relying on punters coming through the gate paying well over the odds.

Will it ever get to the point when we all chuck it? 

[Nowhereman]

2 hours ago, Consolidate said:

My feeling is that an increasing number of supporters are going to say thanks but not thanks to this.

Tune back in when we drop a level, drop prices and stop being perennial underdog. 

Problem is if we drop a level there is every possibility we could keep going, eg Cowdenbeath

[BallochSonsFan]

2 hours ago, sergie's no1 fan said:

When you're a young lad you live for Saturdays. Meeting your mates at the pub for opening time, either get the bus to an away game and see parts of the country you'd never normally see, or if its a home game stay in the pub till 2:50 then head over to the game. Then after go back to the boozer. You can easily spend £100+ on a match day, especially away from home. The football takes a back seat to the actual day out, if your team wins even better, if not you can still have a laugh.

Then when people get older, 2 adults + 2 kids plus food, drink & travel you are looking at £100 easily. If you/the partner/weans aren't enjoying whats on show, the weans or partner might think no f'ck that we'd rather go to the cinema/bowling/go karting instead and actually have fun. 

I suppose what I'm getting at is what are the clubs offering to keep people going back to the football? Pay £20+ to sit on a plastic seat watching lets be honest, not that good a standard,  also to be watched like a hawk by cctv cameras, stewards and police in case you misbehave.  

It's a problem facing every club in the UK but Scotland actually does well attendance wise per head of population. Imagine the stress of running a football club with the fine margins, relying on punters coming through the gate paying well over the odds.

Will it ever get to the point when we all chuck it? 

If we ever end up in a league with an Old Firm colt team then I'd certainly consider it.

Until then? I tried chucking football about 12 years ago. Couldn't do it

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Moving away from prices for a second...

Where has this notion come from that if we get relegated we are all of a sudden going to nose dive into the Lowland League? There is absolutely nothing to remotely suggest this would be the case.

Just because Cowdenbeath are giving it their best shot doesn't mean it's the norm.

[Jan Vojáček]

3 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Moving away from prices for a second...

Where has this notion come from that if we get relegated we are all of a sudden going to nose dive into the Lowland League? There is absolutely nothing to remotely suggest this would be the case.

Just because Cowdenbeath are giving it their best shot doesn't mean it's the norm.

3 out of Cowden's last 4 managers have been Colin Nish, Gary Locke and Billy Brown. The other almost took them out the league. I'd like to think that we could appoint someone vaguely competent if we were to go down and lose Stevie.

Also worth noting that Central Park isn't the sort of place that appeals to players, and the fact that they have a home support of about 200. I'd say Alloa would probably be a more similar club for us to be compared with. 

[Northfield 53]

This is why I won't go to many away games.

I can pay £ 16 to every home game at Queens why should I give Dumbarton £20 .

 

 

 

[Nowhereman]

3 out of Cowden's last 4 managers have been Colin Nish, Gary Locke and Billy Brown. The other almost took them out the league. I'd like to think that we could appoint someone vaguely competent if we were to go down and lose Stevie.
Also worth noting that Central Park isn't the sort of place that appeals to players, and the fact that they have a home support of about 200. I'd say Alloa would probably be a more similar club for us to be compared with. 

The difference with Alloa being that they have owners who give a fcuk whereas Cowdenbeath and ourselves . . .

[rockson]

2 hours ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Moving away from prices for a second...

Where has this notion come from that if we get relegated we are all of a sudden going to nose dive into the Lowland League? There is absolutely nothing to remotely suggest this would be the case.

Just because Cowdenbeath are giving it their best shot doesn't mean it's the norm.

The last time we got relegated from tier 2 to 3 we went down again the following year and finished bottom of the lowest Division the year after.  So fear it. I certainly do.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

The last time we got relegated from tier 2 to 3 we went down again the following year and finished bottom of the lowest Division the year after.  So fear it. I certainly do.

And when was that?

Fear it all you want. It's ķnicker wetting at it's most extreme tbh.

[Jan Vojáček]

55 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

The difference with Alloa being that they have owners who give a fcuk whereas Cowdenbeath and ourselves . . .

We managed to get ourselves into this Division with owners who don't give a flying focus, in fact  I dare say that charlatans like Iain Wilson didn't even know what division we were in for the majority of his time at the club - remember the "couple of seasons" comment from the Trust meeting. I don't see that having a major impact on things, unless there is a serious change in circumstances behind the scenes.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Brabco will not be here indefinitely, and when the penny finally drops that the new ground ain't gonna happen is when the fun will really start. Meantime we can only get behind the team.

[lorenzo71]

1 hour ago, rockson said:

The last time we got relegated from tier 2 to 3 we went down again the following year and finished bottom of the lowest Division the year after.  So fear it. I certainly do.

Well said.Although bottom of L2 seems far away right now, believe me we are very capable of getting there in a couple of seasons.Happened in the years 1996-8 and we ALSO had a stadium issue then too.Namely the sale of Bogheid and the move to the Rock.History has a cruel trend in repeating itself.I genuinely will be scared the day we do eventually get relegated.If the move were successful and somehow more income was obtained and we turned full time , then  i wouldnt be scared so much.But we all know that is a bit like winning the lottery.

[BallochSonsFan]

4 hours ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Moving away from prices for a second...

Where has this notion come from that if we get relegated we are all of a sudden going to nose dive into the Lowland League? There is absolutely nothing to remotely suggest this would be the case.

Just because Cowdenbeath are giving it their best shot doesn't mean it's the norm.

I wouldn't go that far. The Lowland League would take a fall from grace of Gerald Rattner proportions.

What I would say is that it's tough at the very top of league one and that the gap between the middle to lower end of league one and the top of league two isnt huge. Both Raith Rovers and Ayr will have wage bills that will be higher than ours. We could easily be dragged into being a mid-table league one side. The alternative would be spending money, winning promotion and ending up in the Championship, doing exactly what we're doing now.

Unless we were building a title challenging side, which would probably take as much cash to do as it does for us to build a survival side in the Championship, then we could well be dragged to a level of football that we'd be unhappy playing it. It's no certainty that we'd be paying significantly less wages in league one.