Sons' sorrow

[pleslie99]

Aye West Dunbartonshire Council sure have messed up the provision for school football. Yes the Vale and Clydebank High have decent facilities but the biggest school in WDC St Peter the Apostle (and arguably the most successful) doesn't have a 3G pitch big enough for competitive football and their grass pitch has no floodlights! They have to share with Clydebank High. I see the council is wasting £300,000 on improving the changing facilities at the current OLSP site. The pitch there is awful and surely with the new pitch being built up in Bellsmyre - what's the point in the old OLSP pitch. Money is being wasted as it should have been used to rip up the St Peter the Apostle hockey pitch (which has never ever seen a game of hockey on it) and replace with 3G.

The pitch at the current OLSP site is not big enough to host games, the council will admit this to anyone that asks but it's not a broadcast fact. We got stung a few years ago when our opponents complained to the league and I phoned the council to check the dimensions. Given that they are building a new pitch at the new school in Bellsmyre I wonder if they will take this on board.

[The Moonster]

For as long as we have dicks like Martin Rooney on the council it will continue to make incredibly stupid decisions justified by incredibly stupid reasons.

[TheFarPost]

12 hours ago, sons'r'us said:

Or are there any potential football club investors out there who could buy Brabco out and we could be done with this nonsense.

The Sonstrust (which is, or can be YOU) has the clear aim of buying into the club long term. We are willing to work in genuine partnership with the current owners or any other potential investors on the right terms. That is, terms that secure the safety and flourishing of DFC as a viable, community club. We're not yet in a position yet to contemplate full fan ownership, and that may or may not be the right model for us, but we *are* moving into a position to significantly increase our stakeholding and influence, building on what has already been achieved recently (not least the success is persuading Brabco to bring their operations onshore - the fulfilment of which promise we will monitor very carefully). We are talking informally to potential investors who might be prepared to join us in that, of course.

Anne Budge at Hearts has shown how private investors who really care about a team can work with fans to the long term good of those who really love their clubs and want them run to benefit supporters and the community. That's the kind of partnership model that, wearing my hat as the chair of the Scottish Football Supporters Association (http://scottishfsa.org/reclaimthegame/), as well as being an officer of the Sonstrust and our negotiator with the DFC owners, I'm really wanting to help build.  

In other words, the days of fans looking for "magical investors", who will somehow take over the from a current lot we don't like and put it all right, should be put firmly into the past. That's one of the things that's repeatedly gone wrong in football. The answer to the question of 'what next?' should be *us*, working with whoever can help our club be truly sustainable and grow its base of commitment and support. Football clubs at our level are small businesses which *can* be run sustainably and well, involving fans and other investors of competence and goodwill. They're not, and never should be, cash-cows that will make someone rich. People who think they can make a mint out of a small football club are dangerous. 

[TheFarPost]

19 hours ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

The land at the Rock is worth a fraction of what Brabco thought when they 'invested' their money. The viability of it, as a cleared site for housing, is substantially reduced because of land contamination. Therefore the plan for them to profit from their 'investment' fell and another plan is being put forward. This includes (inhales through gritted teeth) a £13.5 million stadium.

The stadium part of the plan, we are told, is supported by the proposed 'enabling' housing development. Allied are apparently prepared to sell the land at a substantially reduced rate presumably because without a stadium, it is unlikely that planning consent would be given for green belt land. Brabco presumably see the return on their investment being the price of the land they achieve for the housing, minus the cost of the stadium.

I've had a thought on this and whilst there may be many reasons that the following couldn't happen, there are also many reasons (discussed ad nauseum) why the current plan may not proceed.

Dumbarton FC need training facilities. Presumably the three secondary schools in Dumbarton and the Vale would benefit by the provision of additional 4g facilities?

Perhaps these facilities could be provided at Dalmoak and built for a price somewhat shy of £13.5 million? As a ball park figure, let's say that a couple of 4g pitches, lights, some changing rooms, parking and associated ancillary infrastructure would cost £4m. The ownership of this might be Brabco or they might have some partnership with the council.

The current stadium could therefore remain and be upgraded if Brabco were to commit to an upgrade of the current facility from the proceeds of the plan.

Due to the increased margin between cost and delivery, Allied might be offered more to swing their agreement to the new plan.

Then again, what do I know?

As a trust we are pressing for comparable business plans for DFC both relocating and staying. The issue is what is in the best interests of the club moving forward: what will make for sustainability and the best chance of success in the future?  That has to be judged in solid business terms, involving in-depth local knowledge, and we want to be able to see what is going on and contribute ideas and possibilities -- including what gets discussed here. I'm not necessary going to get involved in discussing even detail on PnB (I haven't got time, and I'm not always the best person to comment!).... But what you say *is* noticed.

I also know that, while we may not see eye-to-eye on absolutely everything, the club chairman and other non-Brabco directors are committed to the flourishing of DFC, as we are. Regarding Brabco, now on the threshold of ending their offshore arrangement we are told, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. They want a return on their investment. No problem with that -- provided that it happens in a way that supports rather than undermines the club moving forward. How will we know if that is the case?  By getting to see the business modelling in detail, on reasonable terms of commercial confidentiality (but no gagging of the Sonstrust and the fans).  That's what we're talking about at the moment...

[Jan Vojáček]

Hugely revealing interview with Stevo here, hard not to feel sorry for him. He's clearly lost a lot of confidence and it was scary to read about him not leaving his bed for four days.

He seemed like a good guy when he was with us, even if he wasn't massively useful on the park, and his goals against Ayr and QOTS could yet prove crucial.

[Howlin' Wilf]

1 hour ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Hugely revealing interview with Stevo here, hard not to feel sorry for him. He's clearly lost a lot of confidence and it was scary to read about him not leaving his bed for four days.

He seemed like a good guy when he was with us, even if he wasn't massively useful on the park, and his goals against Ayr and QOTS could yet prove crucial.

A painfully honest interview. Good luck to him; he was working as a pundit yesterday on Radio Scotland and did well.

[Howlin' Wilf]

2 hours ago, TheFarPost said:

As a trust we are pressing for comparable business plans for DFC both relocating and staying. The issue is what is in the best interests of the club moving forward: what will make for sustainability and the best chance of success in the future?  That has to be judged in solid business terms, involving in-depth local knowledge, and we want to be able to see what is going on and contribute ideas and possibilities -- including what gets discussed here. I'm not necessary going to get involved in discussing even detail on PnB (I haven't got time, and I'm not always the best person to comment!).... But what you say *is* noticed.

I also know that, while we may not see eye-to-eye on absolutely everything, the club chairman and other non-Brabco directors are committed to the flourishing of DFC, as we are. Regarding Brabco, now on the threshold of ending their offshore arrangement we are told, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. They want a return on their investment. No problem with that -- provided that it happens in a way that supports rather than undermines the club moving forward. How will we know if that is the case?  By getting to see the business modelling in detail, on reasonable terms of commercial confidentiality (but no gagging of the Sonstrust and the fans).  That's what we're talking about at the moment...

I know something of the time, effort and expertise that you're putting in on the supporters' behalf and we should be and indeed are, very grateful for that.

When it appeared that the Rock site was valuable as a site for housing, then the potential move made greater sense. The way I saw it then was that an owner would, sooner or later, realise that value. With the current site being worth little, one has then to look at alternatives. 

I can see no sense in spending £13.5 million* on a stadium for a club like ours, especially not when a small fraction of that money would pull the current stadium up to spec again. Part of the problem is so basic in that the stand could do with a good clean! My suggestion above would see the community benefit, Brabco make more on their investment and the Rock Stadium brought up to spec, perhaps even to include improved function or conference facilities; perhaps also to increase capacity.

Surely a win-win?

  (* around 20 years of our entire current turnover)

[Boghead ranter]

35 minutes ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

A painfully honest interview. Good luck to him; he was working as a pundit yesterday on Radio Scotland and did well.

Yeah, he came across a lot better than I expected yesterday.

[sonsism]

3 hours ago, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Hugely revealing interview with Stevo here, hard not to feel sorry for him. He's clearly lost a lot of confidence and it was scary to read about him not leaving his bed for four days.

He seemed like a good guy when he was with us, even if he wasn't massively useful on the park, and his goals against Ayr and QOTS could yet prove crucial.

Poor Stevo.  Got a lot of respect for him after reading that and I hope he finds what he's looking for now his on-the-park career has finished.

[BallochSonsFan]

It would be good if there was a viable solution that kept us at the current ground whilst meeting our owners' expectations of making a profit.

It's arguable that a sports village offering multiple sporting facilities would be a real boost to Dumbarton and Alexandria and Youngs Farm is potentially well situated between the 2 towns. Unfortunately a comparable development may be Clydebank's new leisure centre which had a budget of around £23million.

Could we put a football village there? Mixed development of outdoor and indoor facilities? Maybe, but would it be any cheaper than the amount Brabco are budgeting for their current plan? I'm sure the £13.5million previously discussed is inclusive of remedial work on the Youngs Farm site and improved access via road upgrades. Presumably those costs don't disappear if we remove the football stadium element of the development and replace it with something different?

The big problem in all of this is that without something substantial that fans can read and assess, we're all working with best guesses and reasonable assumptions.

[TheFarPost]

6 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

The big problem in all of this is that without something substantial that fans can read and assess, we're all working with best guesses and reasonable assumptions.

Correct. That's what we are working on getting. Without it, there can be no confidence in the development from our POV, and indeed a failure of transparency could also bring out more unfavourable information and imperil the project - something which the developers still don't seem fully aware of at the moment. On the other hand, if they have (or can demonstrate the capacity to develop) a plan based on a solid business case and evidence, and are prepared to allow us and the non-Brabco DFC directors in on it in a reasonable and sensible way, then things could look very different. 

[TheFarPost]

7 hours ago, sonsism said:

Poor Stevo.  Got a lot of respect for him after reading that and I hope he finds what he's looking for now his on-the-park career has finished.

Absolutely. The combination of anxiety and depression which seem to be at play here, reading between the lines, can be crippling - especially in a sport which is pretty macho and can be unforgiving towards vulnerability in its competitive culture. Hope Stevo finds peace and happiness again. 

[TheFarPost]

9 hours ago, Howlin' Wilf said:

I know something of the time, effort and expertise that you're putting in on the supporters' behalf and we should be and indeed are, very grateful for that.

  (* around 20 years of our entire current turnover)

Thanks for that support; appreciated -- and thanks for your thoughtful ideas and comments, and those of others around here here. If we work together as supporters and as a trust I believe we can ensure the sustainability of the club, a greater stakeholding for fans, and a viable future.

What we need now are grounded plans for the future of DFC, not flights of fancy. There will be no relenting from the Sonstrust until that happens. And, as I've said before, I know the chairman, our trust director (who works bloody hard!) and the vice-chairman want the best for DFC too. So we have the same aims. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

I'm guessing our pitch is not looking too clever in this weather

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

I'm guessing our pitch is not looking too clever in this weather

I'm fearing the nick it will be in. Our last home game is the worst I've seen it.

Was anyone able to confirm if games took place on it between the Ayr and Raith fixtures? If not what the hell happened?

[Sons Fan]

The European fixtures got moved so I'm guessing that was to protect the pitch.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/752790/dumbarton-putting-a-new-deal-together-to-hold-on-to-stephen-aitken/

Interesting.

[Distant Doonhamer]

On 19/03/2017 at 11:45, Sonsteam of 08 said:

Hugely revealing interview with Stevo here, hard not to feel sorry for him. He's clearly lost a lot of confidence and it was scary to read about him not leaving his bed for four days.

He seemed like a good guy when he was with us, even if he wasn't massively useful on the park, and his goals against Ayr and QOTS could yet prove crucial.

Interesting read. Good luck to the guy.

[Sons Fan]

8 hours ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/752790/dumbarton-putting-a-new-deal-together-to-hold-on-to-stephen-aitken/

Interesting.

I get the impression that they didn't have much to write so in seeing Stevie is out of contract they puffed out the story to make an article.

we aren't "clear of the drop zone" yes we may not be 9 or 10 but the bottom of the league is very close.

Im sure we will offer him a deal but I'd be surprised if we're "desperate" to keep him.

I would hope the club do there homework look around and make sure we have who we feel is the right man for the job, have a chat and see what his expectations and ours are then if they agree sort out a deal.

 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Sons Fan

[The Moonster]

34 minutes ago, Sons Fan said:

I get the impression that they didn't have much to write so in seeing Stevie is out of contract they puffed out the story to make an article.

we aren't "clear of the drop zone" yes we may not be 9 or 10 but the bottom of the league is very close.

Im sure we will offer him a deal but I'd be surprised if we're "desperate" to keep him.

I would hope the club do there homework look around and make sure we have who we feel is the right man for the job, have a chat and see what his expectations and ours are then if they agree sort out a deal.

 

Maybe the club have already done their homework, found that there really isn't much to chose from and are now desperate to hold on to Stevie, thus offering him a good deal to stay?

There are still fans who would rather Stevie was gone, which is fair enough if that's their opinion but he's on target to achieve our league aim and I don't see much evidence to suggest someone else from the leagues below would do a better job.