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Hillsborough debate


Desert Nomad

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Was reading up on this and watching some of the footage on YouTube. Just mental how football used to be watched in stadiums back then. I can remember watching Rovers at the old ground but would obviously never experience anything like that crowd wise...

There was evidence from previous fixtures played at Hillsbourgh that this could potentially happen..yet nothing was done about it. You would think with such a high profile game that an experienced Chief should have been in charge of the game.

I just cannot fathom after watching the CCTV footage at 2.35pm that they didn't delay the kick off. It's absolutely absurd. Also the police never knew that past experience of opening the gate, should have led to the middle tunnel into pens 3 and 4 being closed. Just unreal.

Then there's all the evidence regarding the safety of the ground...I'm not really sure what can actually happen in terms of actions against Sheffield Wednesday as a club though. As clearly their stadium has changed along with every other up and down the country. That's before you mention ownership etc. Strange one that, but I suppose it had to be included in the inquest.

The game has changed so much now. I'm pleased for the families that they now have their proof that the 96 were unlawfully killed.

Still more enquires to come though you would expect...

Edited by Wardy
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Everyone's favourite Scottish blog bigot still maintaining the blame lies with fans, pathetic

13087512_10154758223697542_6070019988558

He's odious. And yet people who should know better quote him ad nauseam when it comes to his views on independence.

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People in a rush to get to the game as they were late and desperate to get in. It's understandable but doesn't mean you can just act irresponsibly and use a 'nobody stopped me' excuse. 

 

 

Everyone's favourite Scottish blog bigot still maintaining the blame lies with fans, pathetic

 

13087512_10154758223697542_6070019988558

I suspect neither 7-2 nor 'Wings' have actually been to big games.  It just is (was) not like standing in a supermarket queue and the blessing is that such events didn't happen more often.

 

Ibrox, Hampden, Celtic Park and even Murrayfield were notorious for appalling crowd control 'back in the day'.

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Was reading up on this and watching some of the footage on YouTube. Just mental how football used to be watched in stadiums back then. I can remember watching Rovers at the old ground but would obviously never experience anything like that crowd wise...

There was evidence from previous fixtures played at Hillsbourgh that this could potentially happen..yet nothing was done about it. You would think with such a high profile game that an experienced Chief should have been in charge of the game.

I just cannot fathom after watching the CCTV footage at 2.35pm that they didn't delay the kick off. It's absolutely absurd. Also the police never knew that past experience of opening the gate, should have led to the middle tunnel into pens 3 and 4 being closed. Just unreal.

Then there's all the evidence regarding the safety of the ground...I'm not really sure what can actually happen in terms of actions against Sheffield Wednesday as a club though. As clearly their stadium has changed along with every other up and down the country. That's before you mention ownership etc. Strange one that, but I suppose it had to be included in the inquest.

The game has changed so much now. I'm pleased for the families that they now have their proof that the 96 were unlawfully killed.

Still more enquires to come though you would expect...

Duckenfield was appointed match commander less than 3 weeks before the tie despite never having been in charge of a major football match at Hillsborough or any other ground hence all the cataclysmic errors he made such as not filtering fans en route and closing the gate to the tunnel etc

The man who would have taken charge that day, Brian Mole had vast experience of football crowds and that ground in particular, he had been moved from his position and transferred to another area after officers under his charge had played a sick prank on a new recruit, placing a bag over his head and holding a gun to him in some sort of weird joke.

Incredible, and tragic to think that that bizzare set of circumstances led, in part to a whole chain of events with such a horrific outcome

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I'm presuming this verdict will open the door for compensation ??

Apologies if this has been answered already, I've not read through all the posts, but there will almost certainly follow a civil case and a significant compensation pay-out to the families and all those affected.

For a civil case to succeed you have to demonstrate three key factors were at play; 1. That a duty of care existed, which everyone agrees it did. SY police, Sheff Wed, Ambulance all had a duty of care to those who attended that match. 2. That they failed in that duty of care and 3. That those affected suffered loss. Point three is obvious. Point to was what today's verdict confirmed.

There should be criminal charges also. Whether or not there will be is open to debate.

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One other thing that folk haven't mentioned about the crushing is the sort of "accordion effect" that happens in crowds.  You also see it all the time with traffic jams.  People at the front start moving, but there's a time delay in how long it takes for people further back to start moving.  Those people then see a moving crowd, and keep going forward.  If the people at the front are stopped, then that causes the crowd to move closer and closer together.

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Was reading up on this and watching some of the footage on YouTube. Just mental how football used to be watched in stadiums back then. I can remember watching Rovers at the old ground but would obviously never experience anything like that crowd wise...

There was evidence from previous fixtures played at Hillsbourgh that this could potentially happen..yet nothing was done about it.

I think I've already said on here, I was in that end around 1983-4, the only time I'd been to a game and felt my life was in danger, a fucking atrocious way to treat supporters, but that was the norm back then.
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Uh huh. Except it hasn't, has it? The blame has been rightly been placed on the authorities - criminal incompetence at best - and the fans' actions ignored. This is politics. Again, why the false dichotomy between the authorities and the fans? Because the authorities were in control of the situation. That is where the blame should lie. Doesn't at all mean it had "f**k all" to do with the fans. Most people are capable of discerning the difference.

Spot on.

Anyone who has ever been to a football match watched by more than 2 people knows that the fans' actions contributed to the problems. They had to. But that was never going to be a conclusion. And rightly so. The main overwhelming failures were organisational and control. Criminal negligence, and hopefully criminal proceedings follow.

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It could be argued, rightly or wrongly, that the fans played a marginal part in the outcome. Contributory negligence, but even at that you'd be putting a nominally low value on it. 1-2% for example. The other 98% lies solely with the authorities.

I don't know what the criminal law said back then put had it happened nowadays the police and all the other parties that contributed would be held to account under the Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 for their negligence under the associated regulations. SY police should and probBly will face legal proceedings. I can't see how they couldn't following today's verdicts.

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Too many people still focusing on 'fans behaviour' as some kind of cause. They were exonerated.

As has been pointed out the actions of individuals and the actions of large crowds are not the same, and treating them as such is unhelpful. It's a bit like folk comparing the economy of a country to the economy of a household. It's simply too different to make such a simple point.

Yes some fans would have been drinking. Yes some fans would have been acting like knobs. But that doesn't equate to blame.

Edited by pandarilla
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Major blunder IMO that doesn't get mentioned that much must be the decision to cram the larger support into the smaller end.

 

It's worth saying that the Taylor Report rejected this, and (AFAICS) the inquest jury weren't asked to reach a resolution to the contrary.

 

Excess tickets hadn't been sold (by official figures i.e. ignoring the ground deficiencies), and even after the gate was opened the stand as a whole wasn't overcrowded - the central pens were.

 

It was all-ticket and had (just) sold-out. It's not thought ticketless fans were prevalent.

 

Taylor concluded that had the allocations been swapped, but the course of events otherwise gone similarly, it might simply have been Forest fans:

 

"I do not consider choice of ends was causative of the disaster. Had it been reversed, the disaster could well have occurred in a similar manner but to Nottingham supporters"

Edited by HibeeJibee
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