qos_75

The Queen of the South Thread

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Davie Rae should tell KB to go. How many people really think he should stay after all he's said in public?

I really hope QOSMad doesn't present an accurate cross-section of our support; but if it does, the answer to your question is an alarmingly large number.

Edited by Monkey Tennis
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Ok. Different for Cowden is it? Fair enough. So you're saying players should be told as soon as you know what division they are playing in then.

Personally I think that's nonsense but running with it for the moment. Morton, Thistle and Stirling know for sure what division they'll be in next season. Can we presume none of those clubs have any out of contract players who don't know their futures at this point? What about all the clubs in other divisions who know too? They presumably also don't have any uninformed out of contract players, no? I'd bet they do. And I'd also bet they are not getting roundly criticised for it. This happens every single year in football. I accept we have more than usual this year but I fail to see how that changes the principle at all? If players are entitled to know before the season ends why isn't a fuss kicked up every year?

And why does Brannigan himself, who didn't tell any of the ones last year until the season was finished (and we knew what division we'd be in for well over a month), suddenly think that the same happening this year is some sort of crime? The answer to that is obvious of course. It's because it's not HIM getting to decide when to tell them. It's ok to not tell players until after the season ends if he decides it but not if it's out of his control apparently. Incredible double standards to be honest but some people are buying it.

Got to agree with you Skyline all players at whatever level know that their contracts will run out and its suits them that way as they are able to go out and try and get a new one somewhere else if the monies better. Players look after number one and loyalty is dictated by their pay packet, having watched Queens a few times this season I am staggered that some are on full time contracts anyway as to be honest they are at best average. The board of directors have made mistakes without doubt, but their biggest one was going full time. The size of crowds in the first division are far to small and to compensate the price to get in then becomes far to expensive for the level of football being played. Queens have in the past been successfull with part time players and hopfully will be again. KB will be no loss as his constant whinging stopped me from going if his job was as bad as he made out he should have packed in and went somewhere else , I'm sure clubs will be queing up for him at the end of the season. Queens will have no touble getting another manager or players but lets hope that this one is'nt scared to play young exciting players and try to play with the ball on the ground instead of the aimless hump up the park to some lifeless giant.

Edited by Zorr-oh!
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Ok. Different for Cowden is it? Fair enough. So you're saying players should be told as soon as you know what division they are playing in then.

Personally I think that's nonsense but running with it for the moment. Morton, Thistle and Stirling know for sure what division they'll be in next season. Can we presume none of those clubs have any out of contract players who don't know their futures at this point? What about all the clubs in other divisions who know too? They presumably also don't have any uninformed out of contract players, no? I'd bet they do. And I'd also bet they are not getting roundly criticised for it. This happens every single year in football. I accept we have more than usual this year but I fail to see how that changes the principle at all? If players are entitled to know before the season ends why isn't a fuss kicked up every year?

And why does Brannigan himself, who didn't tell any of the ones last year until the season was finished (and we knew what division we'd be in for well over a month), suddenly think that the same happening this year is some sort of crime? The answer to that is obvious of course. It's because it's not HIM getting to decide when to tell them. It's ok to not tell players until after the season ends if he decides it but not if it's out of his control apparently. Incredible double standards to be honest but some people are buying it.

For me, the issue isnt so much how the players and manager have been treated, but more the lack of any, apparent, planning by the club and the, very visible, lack of any sort of communication what so ever.

In terms of planning, come the end of the season we'll have no manager and two "senior" players - one of who, apparently, has his agent trying to secure a move away from the club anyway. We have some good players at the club at the moment, many of who - if you believe what they say - would really like to stay at the club, but instead of opening any dialogue with them the BoD are happy to just let them go and replace them with ... well, nobody! If it was 5 or 6 players out of contract, we would still have the core of a side for next season and nobody would have really bothered about this, IMO. But to be left with no players, no manager and no money is frankly appalling management.

It reminds of the Only Fools and Horses episode where Del says "We're traders with nothing to trade and no money to buy" The only difference here is we dont have Del and Rodney either!

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We have some good players at the club at the moment, many of who - if you believe what they say - would really like to stay at the club, but instead of opening any dialogue with them the BoD are happy to just let them go and replace them with ... well, nobody! If it was 5 or 6 players out of contract, we would still have the core of a side for next season and nobody would have really bothered about this, IMO. But to be left with no players, no manager and no money is frankly appalling management.

Perhaps some of the current players would be happy to take a pay cut to stay? But we'll never know that because it appears that no one is going to even ask them.

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Perhaps some of the current players would be happy to take a pay cut to stay? But we'll never know that because it appears that no one is going to even ask them.

I dont know. Its, obviously, easy for the players to sit in front of the fans and say how much they'd love to stay but the ones I saw all seemed genuine enough - maybe they could take up careers in acting once their current contracts expire.

If you look through the squad, I can think of at least 9 players I would like to keep, maybe 6 or 7 that are good enough to build a team around, but every single one of these will be gone come the end of the season without even an attempt to get them to stay. Now, either David Raes opinion of these players varies wildly from mine, we're financially more screwed than we think or this is a monumental screw up.

What makes it worse, is that - once again - the information has 'leaked' out unofficially and, yet again, the club are saying nothing at all. I dont expect contract negotiations etc to be carried out in public but, surely to god, the club should be saying something about whats going on?

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What makes it worse, is that - once again - the information has 'leaked' out unofficially and, yet again, the club are saying nothing at all. I dont expect contract negotiations etc to be carried out in public but, surely to god, the club should be saying something about whats going on?

Personally I blame the Official site Webmaster, I think he must be failing to update the site with the latest news.... :ph34r:

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For me, the issue isnt so much how the players and manager have been treated, but more the lack of any, apparent, planning by the club and the, very visible, lack of any sort of communication what so ever.

In terms of planning, come the end of the season we'll have no manager and two "senior" players - one of who, apparently, has his agent trying to secure a move away from the club anyway. We have some good players at the club at the moment, many of who - if you believe what they say - would really like to stay at the club, but instead of opening any dialogue with them the BoD are happy to just let them go and replace them with ... well, nobody! If it was 5 or 6 players out of contract, we would still have the core of a side for next season and nobody would have really bothered about this, IMO. But to be left with no players, no manager and no money is frankly appalling management.

It reminds of the Only Fools and Horses episode where Del says "We're traders with nothing to trade and no money to buy" The only difference here is we dont have Del and Rodney either!

Well maybe, but that's a whole different complaint to the "it's not fair on the players" one though.

I'm not sure what opening dialogue would achieve to be honest (and it's completely pointless until a manager is confirmed - though that's a different debate)? Everybody knows the wage budget will be slashed. It was stated at the AGM and it's completely obvious we can't afford the squad we currently have. We're not even remotely close to being able to afford it. We're losing £300,000 or so this year (per the AGM, and that down nearly £200,000 from the previous two seasons) and there's only one place to shave costs to that extent. No-one is going to get a contract "renewal" because the club simply can't afford them any longer. The best that can be hoped for is that some players will get reduced offers and might take them eventually. It's pretty unlikely any of them would jump at the chance for a pay drop without at least testing the waters with other clubs. Realistically no-one is going to agree a new deal anyway. Plus of course anyone re-signed now is going to need paying over the summer when there is no income to cover it.

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Bl00dy hell, what a state to be in :( What's the Euromillions jackpot up to at the moment?

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If you look through the squad, I can think of at least 9 players I would like to keep, maybe 6 or 7 that are good enough to build a team around, but every single one of these will be gone come the end of the season without even an attempt to get them to stay. Now, either David Raes opinion of these players varies wildly from mine, we're financially more screwed than we think or this is a monumental screw up.

How screwed do you think we are? No-one's told any lies here. Per the AGM, on our present income and wage budget we're losing £300,000 per annum give or take. We have debts apparently around about £150,000 (not including funding provided by the directors and former directors) already. And we need to get to break even next year.

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Personally I blame the Official site Webmaster, I think he must be failing to update the site with the latest news.... :ph34r:

Me too :lol:

Well maybe, but that's a whole different complaint to the "it's not fair on the players" one though.

Well, yes. Thats why I said I didnt think that was the main issue here

Although, having said that, if the club had no intention of keeping any of the players then they should have been told earlier, not left hanging with this promise of "discussions" after the cup final.

I'm not sure what opening dialogue would achieve to be honest (and it's completely pointless until a manager is confirmed - though that's a different debate)? Everybody knows the wage budget will be slashed. It was stated at the AGM and it's completely obvious we can't afford the squad we currently have. We're not even remotely close to being able to afford it. We're losing £300,000 or so this year (per the AGM, and that down nearly £200,000 from the previous two seasons) and there's only one place to shave costs to that extent. No-one is going to get a contract "renewal" because the club simply can't afford them any longer. The best that can be hoped for is that some players will get reduced offers and might take them eventually. It's pretty unlikely any of them would jump at the chance for a pay drop without at least testing the waters with other clubs. Realistically no-one is going to agree a new deal anyway. Plus of course anyone re-signed now is going to need paying over the summer when there is no income to cover it.

With all due respect, all of that might be obvious to you. That doesnt mean, however, that it is 'obvious' to the majority of the fans, especially when the club has made no public announcement about the finances or the "plan" for the future. As you say, the club has posted losses in the last few seasons and this season is the first time we've heard talk of cuts of any sort. It is obvious that the BoD cant continue to bankroll the club for ever, but why is it 'obvious' that next season should see such a cull?

And Im not talking about resigning the whole squad, or even any of them, on the same terms as they're currently on, but is there any harm in talking to them?

As I said, to be left with 2 senior players is shambolic. Thats my biggest issue with the situation. If these losses were unsustainable cost cutting should have happened earlier and phased in, or the BoD should continue to make up the shortfall until other income comes in, the youths setup is more established and the club can actually survive on the income it generates. They have obviously put in plenty of there own money already, and should be applauded for that, but its their management of the club thats got us into this position. To simply wield the axe with such drastic cuts could be catastrophic.

It might also help if they actually communicated with fans too

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I am staying out of this as there is no right and wrong answer, on thing I would say is I doubt McShane, Orsi, Degnan and any of the other "second" year 19s are signed up at this moment either.

One thing I hope we do is sort out either KB or A.n other ASAP after the season, as while the budget is reduced you want to use tat budget to it's full potential.

Agree with that though. The sooner we have a manager in place, be it Brannigan or someone else, the better they can decide what they want to do with whatever the budget actually is. It should be the manager's decision whether to sign a handful now and cope with paying out wages through the summer at a cost to the rest of the budget or bide his time until later.

Although there isn't the same problem with the 19's (potentially an issue with Orsi given how injured he is I suppose). Presuming they are given offers before their contracts run out (mid May) then they can't go elsewhere without someone paying compensation for them which, decent as some of them look, seems unlikely.

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How screwed do you think we are? No-one's told any lies here. Per the AGM, on our present income and wage budget we're losing £300,000 per annum give or take. We have debts apparently around about £150,000 (not including funding provided by the directors and former directors) already. And we need to get to break even next year.

I never accused anyone of lying. However, not everyone was at the AGM (and that isnt a dig) and the club has never published any "official" figures, or any statement re finances, so I have no idea how screwed we are, other than the bits of information I read on message boards and the press. In my opinion, thats part of the problem. Why do we have to break even next year, for example? When was this decided? If it was decided 3 or 4 years ago, then why have costs not been cut before now? If its just been decided this year, dont the fans deserve some sort of explanation as to why?

Obviously, those questions arent directed at you, just examples of the kind of things we simply dont know. But if we did, might make us more sympathetic to the BoD and what theyre doing

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Although, having said that, if the club had no intention of keeping any of the players then they should have been told earlier, not left hanging with this promise of "discussions" after the cup final.

With all due respect, all of that might be obvious to you. That doesnt mean, however, that it is 'obvious' to the majority of the fans, especially when the club has made no public announcement about the finances or the "plan" for the future. As you say, the club has posted losses in the last few seasons and this season is the first time we've heard talk of cuts of any sort. It is obvious that the BoD cant continue to bankroll the club for ever, but why is it 'obvious' that next season should see such a cull?

And Im not talking about resigning the whole squad, or even any of them, on the same terms as they're currently on, but is there any harm in talking to them?

As I said, to be left with 2 senior players is shambolic. Thats my biggest issue with the situation. If these losses were unsustainable cost cutting should have happened earlier and phased in, or the BoD should continue to make up the shortfall until other income comes in, the youths setup is more established and the club can actually survive on the income it generates. They have obviously put in plenty of there own money already, and should be applauded for that, but its their management of the club thats got us into this position. To simply wield the axe with such drastic cuts could be catastrophic.

It might also help if they actually communicated with fans too

I might be wrong here but I don't think the Board ever did promise discussions with players after the cup final? I can't recall reading or hearing that anywhere. They did say that they'd have discussions with Brannigan after the cup final which doesn't appear to have happened yet. As I said already, I don't agree with that. That should have been dealt with by now.

In the event that they have no intention of keeping players (and there's no basis as yet to suggest that's the case, all I said was it's highly likely current terms won't be renewed) I fail to see what benefit there would have been in telling them that earlier.

The Chairman said at the AGM, which was widely reported, that the losses couldn't be sustained any longer, the club would have to aim to break even next year and that as the squad couldn't be made any smaller than it already was, the levels of pay would be the next thing addressed. It's not a "public" announcement maybe but it was made directly to the owners of the club and reported in the Standard and Courier at the time, though I don't recall actually reading the part about wage levels anywhere afterwards. He certainly said it though.

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I never accused anyone of lying. However, not everyone was at the AGM (and that isnt a dig) and the club has never published any "official" figures, or any statement re finances, so I have no idea how screwed we are, other than the bits of information I read on message boards and the press. In my opinion, thats part of the problem. Why do we have to break even next year, for example? When was this decided? If it was decided 3 or 4 years ago, then why have costs not been cut before now? If its just been decided this year, dont the fans deserve some sort of explanation as to why?

Obviously, those questions arent directed at you, just examples of the kind of things we simply dont know. But if we did, might make us more sympathetic to the BoD and what theyre doing

Sorry, I didn't for one minute think you had accused anyone of it. Maybe I could have phrased that better. But the AGM was front page news in the local paper and discussed in detail on the forums. The present year loss and debt figures were in the Standard and the Chairman did interviews both before and after the event confirming the club would have to break even next year. I don't think you actually had to be there to know those numbers.

Edited to add, these articles both disclose the same numbers and a need to break even moving forward:

Daily Record

D&G Standard

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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I might be wrong here but I don't think the Board ever did promise discussions with players after the cup final? I can't recall reading or hearing that anywhere. They did say that they'd have discussions with Brannigan after the cup final which doesn't appear to have happened yet. As I said already, I don't agree with that. That should have been dealt with by now.

In the event that they have no intention of keeping players (and there's no basis as yet to suggest that's the case, all I said was it's highly likely current terms won't be renewed) I fail to see what benefit there would have been in telling them that earlier.

Im not sure if the players were promised discussions either. KB certainly was, I guess the assumption was that he would then speak to the players he wanted to resign - certainly he said he wouldnt talk to them before his future was sorted, so it seems a reasonable assumption.

Surely the whole point of this discussion is that the manager and players have been told that they wont be kept on next season?

The Chairman said at the AGM, which was widely reported, that the losses couldn't be sustained any longer, the club would have to aim to break even next year and that as the squad couldn't be made any smaller than it already was, the levels of pay would be the next thing addressed. It's not a "public" announcement maybe but it was made directly to the owners of the club and reported in the Standard and Courier at the time, though I don't recall actually reading the part about wage levels anywhere afterwards. He certainly said it though.

The AGM was "widely reported" by the local papers, who we know got their figures wrong!!

For me, this highlights the main problem. We're going round talking about semantics of who might have said what and who reported what. And why? Because the club never comes out and actually says anything!

Sorry, I didn't for one minute think you had accused anyone of it. Maybe I could have phrased that better. But the AGM was front page news in the local paper and discussed in detail on the forums. The present year loss and debt figures were in the Standard and the Chairman did interviews both before and after the event confirming the club would have to break even next year. I don't think you actually had to be there to know those numbers.

Edited to add, these articles both disclose the same numbers and a need to break even moving forward:

Daily Record

D&G Standard

Lets be clear here, though. I dont consider an article in the Standard as being the same as a club "announcement" The club has no control over what is printed in the media or the context the interview is used in. We've already seen the Standard print inaccurate figures over this very subject!

Something being reported by the media, or posters on an internet forum, is very different from the club actually announcing something.

I guess thats probably going to sound like sour grapes as the information isnt on the OS but is in the papers. It isnt. I couldnt care less if stuff was announced on the OS or not, as long as its done somewhere official

Edited by Mr X
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Surely the whole point of this discussion is that the manager and players have been told that they wont be kept on next season?

Not as far as I know they haven't. Where's that coming from? Brannigan apparently said on the radio at the weekend that he thought contracts were just going to be allowed to expire (I didn't hear it myself). I don't think anyone from the Board has actually said that.

The AGM was "widely reported" by the local papers, who we know got their figures wrong!!

Well they have since, fair point. To be fair however the Standard report of the AGM (now linked in my previous post) was entirely accurate and was exactly what was said at the time I think. Had it not been I would imagine Mr Rae would have gone off the deep end in a similar manner to last week at that time.

Edited by Skyline Drifter
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Not as far as I know they haven't. Where's that coming from? Brannigan apparently said on the radio at the weekend that he thought contracts were just going to be allowed to expire (I didn't hear it myself). I don't think anyone from the Board has actually said that.

No, no-one from the board has said anything for a long time ... thats the whole problem! I didnt hear Brannigans interview, just the snippet with Richard Gordon and Sandra Brown, who implied the contracts would all be allowed to expire. I then read it on here from others who picked up the same thing.

If that isnt the case, then we've all been arguing over nothing. The problem, as I said, is that we dont know

Well they have since, fair point. To be fair however the Standard report of the AGM (now linked in my previous post) was entirely accurate and was exactly what was said at the time I think. Had it not been I would imagine Mr Rae would have gone off the deep end in a similar manner to last week at that time.

While the quality of reporting about the club has improved in recent years, I've long since stopped taking anything the Standard says about Queens as accurate. You know the reporting of the AGM was correct because you were there.

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Really? Have Cowden? Has any team in this division told their "Out of Contract" players whether they will be getting new deals next season or not? I'd be surprised if they have.

I have to say of all the things that are getting moaned about at the moment this is the issue that surprises me most. I understand why people think the manager's position should be sorted out. I wouldn't disagree. I understand why people want to criticise Davie or the Board's handling of the finances and the spat with the Standard this week. Lord knows they could have been handled much better. I don't understand why it's suddenly the crime of the century to have a pile of players who are out of contract at the end of the season who don't know yet whether they will get a new deal or not?

I can't remember out of contract players ever being told before the season was dead (which it only was after today) and seldom before the last ball is kicked. Brannigan himself didn't tell ANY of the out of contract players last season whether they would be offered anything until after the season was finished. Neither did Chisholm, McCall or Connolly before him (I think Iain Scott actually did). Why it's some crime not to do so now I have no idea? Such is the way in football. They all sign fixed term contracts and they run out. All that's different with us this season is that we don't actually have many signed up beyond the end of this season (there are three first team squad members under contract for next year). However, whether we have three, eight, ten or fourteen I fail to see what odds it makes to those who aren't signed up. If footballers are really unhappy with having contracts that are set to run out and with an uncertain future then I'd suggest they are in the wrong career.

This is a different scenario though. No I wouldn't normally expect players to be told before the end of the season, but then I wouldn't normally expect the decisions to have been made - not definitively - before then.

But in a circumstance where rumours are circulating publically that a policy decision has been taken not to renew any contracts, then yeah, I would expect the club to have had the courtesy to inform employees of that before it reached the press. (Or to make it clear, both internally and publically, that it's not true, if that's the case.)

Not because there's any obligation to do so, but because it's the decent way to treat people, particularly if you still want them to perform for you for the remainder of this season.

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MATCH ABANDONED QOS v Ross County smoke from an overheating generator in the main stand

?

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I heard that the Generator's contract is up this summer, the Chairman refuses to speak to the Generator so it said "f**k this" and gave a less than 100% performance.

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