The Queen of the South thread

[QoS_1919]

5 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

5 hours ago, Mr X said:

You're right, but Dobbie is in a very different position to someone like Holt or Durnan. Hes had a fairly succesful career down south and will have significantly more money in the bank than either of those two

Absolutely. But I still find the view 'players will always go to who pays them the most money' to be nonsense.

I agree. Take Rory McAllister for example. Is he not a plumber or has a decent trade? Im sure he turned down a few big clubs to stay up the road and stay part-time as it didn't suit him with his family and full time job.

[Northfield 53]

7 minutes ago, QoS_1919 said:

I agree. Take Rory McAllister for example. Is he not a plumber or has a decent trade? Im sure he turned down a few big clubs to stay up the road and stay part-time as it didn't suit him with his family and full time job.

It is not the same for a part time player as football is not his main income.

[Northfield 53]

5 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

5 hours ago, Mr X said:

You're right, but Dobbie is in a very different position to someone like Holt or Durnan. Hes had a fairly succesful career down south and will have significantly more money in the bank than either of those two

Absolutely. But I still find the view 'players will always go to who pays them the most money' to be nonsense.

Take Nicky Clark he has left Dunfermline because he has heard the weather is better in Dundee !!! nothing to do with him getting double his wages at Untied..

Kevin Holt had ticked all his boxes  on coming back to Queens  will not be bothered on getting less than half on what he was on at Dundee it is only money !!!

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

5 hours ago, Mr X said:

You're right, but Dobbie is in a very different position to someone like Holt or Durnan. Hes had a fairly succesful career down south and will have significantly more money in the bank than either of those two

Absolutely. But I still find the view 'players will always go to who pays them the most money' to be nonsense.

It's not nonsense.  It's the overriding factor nearly all of the time.

Other factors can however, sometimes come into play.  That's all.

 

[19QOS19]

Take Nicky Clark he has left Dunfermline because he has heard the weather is better in Dundee !!! nothing to do with him getting double his wages at Untied..
Kevin Holt had ticked all his boxes  on coming back to Queens  will not be bothered on getting less than half on what he was on at Dundee it is only money !!!

What has Clark got to do with anything? You've said players will always go to who pays them the most. That's not always the case.

It's not nonsense.  It's the overriding factor nearly all of the time.
Other factors can however, sometimes come into play.  That's all.
 

It is nonsense. Are you suggesting Dobbie couldn't be making more money elsewhere?

[Monkey Tennis]

37 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

It is nonsense. Are you suggesting Dobbie couldn't be making more money elsewhere?

Of course not.  But neither am I suggesting that his specific, unusual example proves that players are never motivated by money.

That's like claiming that what Leicester did proves that footballing success is unrelated to wealth.  It's drivel, and you're usually above it.

[19QOS19]

Of course not.  But neither am I suggesting that his specific, unusual example proves that players are never motivated by money.
That's like claiming that what Leicester did proves that footballing success is unrelated to wealth.  It's drivel, and you're usually above it.

I've never suggested players are never motivated by money though. I'm well aware money is a massive part of whether or not a player signs for a club. To suggest players ALWAYS go to the highest paying club as Northfield suggested, is what is nonsense.

I know there are a lot of mercenaries in the game nowadays but there are still a lot of players who would rather drop a wage to be playing regularly rather than take a bumper pay packet to warm a bench.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I've never suggested players are never motivated by money though. I'm well aware money is a massive part of whether or not a player signs for a club. To suggest players ALWAYS go to the highest paying club as Northfield suggested, is what is nonsense.

I know there are a lot of mercenaries in the game nowadays but there are still a lot of players who would rather drop a wage to be playing regularly rather than take a bumper pay packet to warm a bench.

Well yes, but to cite Dobbie as an example of that doesn't really work.  He's not here for fear of being on a bench elsewhere.  

Even the talk of "mercenaries" is a bit unfair.  Footballers, like the rest of us, try to earn what their skills can command.  They operate in a particularly bonkers market, but there's not really an especially moral element to what they strive for, certainly not at our level.

[19QOS19]

Well yes, but to cite Dobbie as an example of that doesn't really work.  He's not here for fear of being on a bench elsewhere.  
Even the talk of "mercenaries" is a bit unfair.  Footballers, like the rest of us, try to earn what their skills can command.  They operate in a particularly bonkers market, but there's not really an especially moral element to what they strive for, certainly not at our level.

I used Dobbie as an example because it proves the "footballers will always go to whoever pays them the most money" point isn't correct.

I'm sure Stevie Tosh could have made more money elsewhere as well. Similarly Wullie Gibson could probably have got more money elsewhere when he re-joined us in the second division. Footballers will try and get the best deal they can but to say they are only thinking of the pound signs is very harsh and quite frankly not true.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I used Dobbie as an example because it proves the "footballers will always go to whoever pays them the most money" point isn't correct.

I'm sure Stevie Tosh could have made more money elsewhere as well. Similarly Wullie Gibson could probably have got more money elsewhere when he re-joined us in the second division. Footballers will try and get the best deal they can but to say they are only thinking of the pound signs is very harsh and quite frankly not true.

I doubt if we fundamentally disagree here.

The point is though that Queens will nearly always lose out to teams around us that can pay significantly better wages. 

Northfield might have stated this a bit stridently for some tastes, but basically (for all there are occasional exceptions) he's right.

[Skyline Drifter]

13 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

It's not nonsense.  It's the overriding factor nearly all of the time.

Other factors can however, sometimes come into play.  That's all.

 

 

13 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

What has Clark got to do with anything? You've said players will always go to who pays them the most. That's not always the case.
It is nonsense. Are you suggesting Dobbie couldn't be making more money elsewhere?

 

12 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

I used Dobbie as an example because it proves the "footballers will always go to whoever pays them the most money" point isn't correct.

I'm sure Stevie Tosh could have made more money elsewhere as well. Similarly Wullie Gibson could probably have got more money elsewhere when he re-joined us in the second division. Footballers will try and get the best deal they can but to say they are only thinking of the pound signs is very harsh and quite frankly not true.

 

12 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I doubt if we fundamentally disagree here.

The point is though that Queens will nearly always lose out to teams around us that can pay significantly better wages. 

Northfield might have stated this a bit stridently for some tastes, but basically (for all there are occasional exceptions) he's right.

I'm with Monkey Tennis, Flash and Northfield here (as rare as that may be!). There are obviously other influencing factors and exceptional cases but generally the conclusion that footballers will go where the most money is (subject to believing they will play at least regularly) absolutely valid. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Obviously if a footballer who lives in one area can get £x to play locally and £x + 10% to play at the other end of the country he may decide it's not sufficiently more to make uprooting his family, relocating his life away from his friends or travelling for hours each way worthwhile. And there may be exceptions who for loyalty reasons, end of career, no longer chasing money, pathway to coaching career, etc go somewhere for non monetary reasons.

Wullie Gibson is a very interesting example for 19QOS19 to bring up. He and Greg Fleming from Annan are not playing in Peterhead for its convenient location or any lifelong devotion to the North Sea fishing industry. Why do you think he's there and not somewhere closer to home? When he joined us in the second division he'd previously stormed out of Falkirk and very publicly fallen out with Stephen Pressley. He may have been able to get a little more money elsewhere in Scotland but I'm not that certain about it and of course we are his home town club and one he's supported since he was young and we were a likely opportunity to win a League (which we did, & a cup for good measure).  I imagine Stevie Tosh possibly could have gotten more money elsewhere when he joined us but given he was living in Dumfries with a young family at the time, maybe not by enough to make it worth his while uprooting again.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Skyline Drifter

[Northfield 53]

4 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

 

 

I'm with Monkey Tennis and Northfield here (as rare as that may be!). There are obviously other influencing factors and exceptional cases but generally the conclusion that footballers will go where the most money is (subject to believing they will play at least regularly) absolutely valid. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Obviously if a footballer who lives in one area can get £x to play locally and £x + 10% to play at the other end of the country he may decide it's not sufficiently more to make uprooting his family, relocating his life away from his friends or travelling for hours each way worthwhile. And there may be exceptions who for loyalty reasons, end of career, no longer chasing money, pathway to coaching career, etc go somewhere for non monetary reasons.

Wullie Gibson is a very interesting example for 19QOS19 to bring up. He and Greg Fleming from Annan are not playing in Peterhead for its convenient location or any lifelong devotion to the North Sea fishing industry. Why do you think he's there and not somewhere closer to home? When he joined us in the second division he'd previously stormed out of Falkirk and very publicly fallen out with Stephen Pressley. He may have been able to get a little more money elsewhere in Scotland but I'm not that certain about it and of course we are his home town club and one he's supported since he was young and we were a likely opportunity to win a League (which we did, & a cup for good measure).  I imagine Stevie Tosh possibly could have gotten more money elsewhere when he joined us but given he was living in Dumfries with a young family at the time, maybe not by enough to make it worth his while uprooting again.

Can't believe it Skyline actually agrees with me amazing !!!.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 minutes ago, Northfield 53 said:

Can't believe it Skyline actually agrees with me amazing !!!.

I'm embarrassed about that enough already without you repeating it! Still, even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again.

[palmy_cammy]

I think what SD says is bang on, and it is probably why training in the central belt is such a necessity.  Going on the assumption that we pay low (or perhaps even the lowest) full time wages in Scotland I'd imagine we would find it very difficult to attract players if they were also having to travel to train.  I'm sure travel expenses would be incorporated into the wage but that would mean their basic weekly wage would be less, or we'd pay the same but with expenses on top and thus have a far larger wage bill.

Of course it is a vicious circle, by being based in the central belt we are putting ourselves in direct competition with the vast majority of clubs in the country.  It's a congested market and of course players are going to choose the best deal possible for themselves.

There's no denying our geographical location puts us at a disadvantage.  I really wish there was a way we could turn it into an advantage but I just don't think it's possible to do it any more so than we do already.  As the biggest and best team (by a considerable margin) in the region we should have the pick of the crop of players plying their trade in D&G.  I'd imagine that is pretty much the case.  I'm not that knowledgeable on the local scene below Queens, but I can't think of any high profile examples we have missed out on.  Jamie Adams is from Stranraer and was never on our books as a youngster, but he was snapped up by Kilmarnock at a young age so even if we were interested in him I doubt he would have chosen us over them.  Dumfries and Galloway isn't exactly renowned for being a hotbed of footballing talent, and if you look at the number of local players we have had in recent times you'd have to say we've not done too bad at capturing most of the good ones.

It's been mentioned before about trying to use our location to dip into the market in the north-east of England, but again I don't think it is all that viable.  Jordan Marshall was obviously a success and perhaps there is potential for more "Carlisle-rejects" to do a job for us.  Whilst it is harsh to judge it on the injury-hit spell of one player, Steven Rigg's displays suggest that the levels below Carlisle in Cumbria are inferior to the Scottish Championship.  I'm sure Northumbria and Tyne and Wear are full of players that would do a job for us, but as per my previous point about travelling it simply wouldn't be worth their while.  At the recent Meet the Manager night Steve Bowey and Paddy Atkinson mentioned that part-time players in the non-league level they are involved in are receiving wages of over £1000 p/w.

It is what it is, to coin a phrase used by our manager.  Livingston's example last season should show a lot of teams that it isn't all about the players that you have, but about the manager getting the most out of them.

I know this post suggests otherwise but I actually find talk of budgets, finances and crowd sizes quite tedious.  Obviously it is all important stuff, but not for a run of the mill fan like me to get bogged down in.  Leave that to the board and staff at the club.  I don't know if it is the "Champ Man generation" or the influence of Sky and the EPL brainwashing everyone into thinking football is all about who has spent the most £millions this week.  It's not what got me into football and it's not why I continue to follow it despite the fact it disappoints 90% of the time.

[football maniac]

1 hour ago, palmy_cammy said:

I think what SD says is bang on, and it is probably why training in the central belt is such a necessity.  Going on the assumption that we pay low (or perhaps even the lowest) full time wages in Scotland I'd imagine we would find it very difficult to attract players if they were also having to travel to train.  I'm sure travel expenses would be incorporated into the wage but that would mean their basic weekly wage would be less, or we'd pay the same but with expenses on top and thus have a far larger wage bill.

Of course it is a vicious circle, by being based in the central belt we are putting ourselves in direct competition with the vast majority of clubs in the country.  It's a congested market and of course players are going to choose the best deal possible for themselves.

There's no denying our geographical location puts us at a disadvantage.  I really wish there was a way we could turn it into an advantage but I just don't think it's possible to do it any more so than we do already.  As the biggest and best team (by a considerable margin) in the region we should have the pick of the crop of players plying their trade in D&G.  I'd imagine that is pretty much the case.  I'm not that knowledgeable on the local scene below Queens, but I can't think of any high profile examples we have missed out on.  Jamie Adams is from Stranraer and was never on our books as a youngster, but he was snapped up by Kilmarnock at a young age so even if we were interested in him I doubt he would have chosen us over them.  Dumfries and Galloway isn't exactly renowned for being a hotbed of footballing talent, and if you look at the number of local players we have had in recent times you'd have to say we've not done too bad at capturing most of the good ones.

It's been mentioned before about trying to use our location to dip into the market in the north-east of England, but again I don't think it is all that viable.  Jordan Marshall was obviously a success and perhaps there is potential for more "Carlisle-rejects" to do a job for us.  Whilst it is harsh to judge it on the injury-hit spell of one player, Steven Rigg's displays suggest that the levels below Carlisle in Cumbria are inferior to the Scottish Championship.  I'm sure Northumbria and Tyne and Wear are full of players that would do a job for us, but as per my previous point about travelling it simply wouldn't be worth their while.  At the recent Meet the Manager night Steve Bowey and Paddy Atkinson mentioned that part-time players in the non-league level they are involved in are receiving wages of over £1000 p/w.

It is what it is, to coin a phrase used by our manager.  Livingston's example last season should show a lot of teams that it isn't all about the players that you have, but about the manager getting the most out of them.

I know this post suggests otherwise but I actually find talk of budgets, finances and crowd sizes quite tedious.  Obviously it is all important stuff, but not for a run of the mill fan like me to get bogged down in.  Leave that to the board and staff at the club.  I don't know if it is the "Champ Man generation" or the influence of Sky and the EPL brainwashing everyone into thinking football is all about who has spent the most £millions this week.  It's not what got me into football and it's not why I continue to follow it despite the fact it disappoints 90% of the time.

A potential solution would be basing training in Carlisle or Newcastle and tapping into players further afield than just Cumbria. We could look into guys as far down as the Liverpool/Manchester area who wouldnt have too long a commute to get to training. It would also be convenient for the local lads who would only need a wee half hour journey to training. Location for us can be cited as a disadvantage but we could use it to our advantage in this instance. The Glasgow market is saturated as far as Im concerned. We are all looking at the same tried and tested players and as has been stated we are usually feeding off the scraps when it comes to wages, so why not use our Southern location to our advantage and attempt to forge relationships with our Southern neighbours? 

[Dougie Mills]

5 hours ago, football maniac said:

A potential solution would be basing training in Carlisle or Newcastle and tapping into players further afield than just Cumbria. We could look into guys as far down as the Liverpool/Manchester area who wouldnt have too long a commute to get to training. It would also be convenient for the local lads who would only need a wee half hour journey to training. Location for us can be cited as a disadvantage but we could use it to our advantage in this instance. The Glasgow market is saturated as far as Im concerned. We are all looking at the same tried and tested players and as has been stated we are usually feeding off the scraps when it comes to wages, so why not use our Southern location to our advantage and attempt to forge relationships with our Southern neighbours? 

Surely you would still be “feeding off scraps” from Liverpool/Manchester areas?  Also the travel expenses getting players up the road for the Highland/Dundee type games doesn’t bear thinking about!

Edited June 2, 2018 by Dougie Mills

[QoS_1919]

21 hours ago, Northfield 53 said:

It is not the same for a part time player as football is not his main income.

Not really no. He had the chance to go to St Mirren and Charlton so full time football and alot better wage would have been his main income. 

[19QOS19]

I'm with Monkey Tennis, Flash and Northfield here (as rare as that may be!). There are obviously other influencing factors and exceptional cases but generally the conclusion that footballers will go where the most money is (subject to believing they will play at least regularly) absolutely valid. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Obviously if a footballer who lives in one area can get £x to play locally and £x + 10% to play at the other end of the country he may decide it's not sufficiently more to make uprooting his family, relocating his life away from his friends or travelling for hours each way worthwhile. And there may be exceptions who for loyalty reasons, end of career, no longer chasing money, pathway to coaching career, etc go somewhere for non monetary reasons.
Wullie Gibson is a very interesting example for 19QOS19 to bring up. He and Greg Fleming from Annan are not playing in Peterhead for its convenient location or any lifelong devotion to the North Sea fishing industry. Why do you think he's there and not somewhere closer to home? When he joined us in the second division he'd previously stormed out of Falkirk and very publicly fallen out with Stephen Pressley. He may have been able to get a little more money elsewhere in Scotland but I'm not that certain about it and of course we are his home town club and one he's supported since he was young and we were a likely opportunity to win a League (which we did, & a cup for good measure).  I imagine Stevie Tosh possibly could have gotten more money elsewhere when he joined us but given he was living in Dumfries with a young family at the time, maybe not by enough to make it worth his while uprooting again.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I'm not arguing that players won't try and get the best deal they can but I maintain that "players will ALWAYS(!!!!) go to the side paying the most money" isn't always the case.

[Bluenortherner]

I'm just a wee bit disappointed that our Manager hasn't any contacts in England, I expected something from his Everton link. Maybe it is indeed a money thing!

[football maniac]

6 hours ago, Dougie Mills said:

Surely you would still be “feeding off scraps” from Liverpool/Manchester areas?  Also the travel expenses getting players up the road for the Highland/Dundee type games doesn’t bear thinking about!

True but if they moved to Carlisle wouldnt be such an issue. Players from all over move to Carlisle to play for Carlisle United so if we trained their they could do the same for us. Might even be quicker getting to Glasgow etc than for the local lads due to it being right beside the motorway. Folk would be more inclined to move to the city of Carlisle than the town of Dumfries. 

1 hour ago, Bluenortherner said:

I'm just a wee bit disappointed that our Manager hasn't any contacts in England, I expected something from his Everton link. Maybe it is indeed a money thing!

Wouldnt it be nice if we signed someone we hadnt heard of like! Would add a certain level of intrigue to the signings. As it is every player we sign I seem to either have seen or be totally aware of what they are like. Just so happens so far Ive seen and heard of Harkins and am very impressed