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The Queen of the South thread


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10 minutes ago, louisxiv said:

Maybe I need to watch it again!

Keeper is a yard maybe 2 of his line when pen is hit.

To be fair to Fordyce having watched it again it`s a better pen than I gave him credit for.

It`s available on i-player if you can face it.

penalty woe/woeful penalties.

Edited by Distant Doonhamer
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1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

 


If he had saved that I really hope the officials would have given Fordyce a retake. I know gk's step forward but he was taking the piss with that one. He was nearly on the 6 yard line emoji38.png

 

He really wasn`t. Couple of yards off his line at most.

penalty woe/woeful penalties.

Edited by Distant Doonhamer
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2 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Our record is 1 win and 3 losses in four shootouts. It's as close to 50/50 as you can be without actually being 50/50 in 4 games. I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment that it's not entirely a lottery, but our record over a four game sample this season neither proves nor disproves it.

That record includes one that didn’t count for anything. Our record in the three shoot outs that mattered is 0 wins from 3, including losing one from 2-0 up.

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

The East Kilbride shoot out was a disaster for us. We missed two and they hit five perfect penalties. 

They only hit 4 penalties. We scored 1 out of 3 and they scored with all 4 of theirs.

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3 hours ago, palmy_cammy said:

Whilst the "lottery" line is a tired cliche, I have his sympathy in so far as from the managers perspective it is out of his hands.  Lottery is the wrong word, but he has no control or influence over the outcome, unlike in normal play.  He makes his picks and then has to sit back and cross his fingers.

You'd like to think after the League Cup experiences that we perhaps did a bit of extra penalty practice in the lead up to yesterday.  Maybe we did.  Regardless, you'd stake your mortgage on Lyle and Dobbie both scoring, or at the very least one of them.

My point is that you can practice penalties,  both takers and GKer. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that those teams/nations who practice and study penalties are more successful.  

If he came out and said, we had three sessions in the week practicing penalties, but the players froze/failed, I'd have some sympathy with him. Instead, he came out with some rubbish about how he would still have the same players taking pens  with Dobbie and Lyle up first. 

Imagine if we were involved in a penalty shoot-out in the division play-off final to get promotion, (stop laughing at the back),  and he used the lottery excuse, the fans would rightly be livid.  

I've said this before, but the season that AFC Wimbledon won a penalty shootout in the Conference playoff to get promoted to the FL, the players and GKer had been practicing pens on a daily basis  for weeks.  

Edited by KingfaetheSooth
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16 minutes ago, KingfaetheSooth said:

If he came out and said, we had three sessions in the week practicing penalties, but the players froze/failed, I'd have some sympathy with him. Instead, he came out with some rubbish about how he would still have the same players taking pens  with Dobbie and Lyle up first. 

I'd imagine if he said that people would be on here going on about how he is negative and always blames the players. A manager is always going to throw out platitudes when they get beat on penalties, nothing to be gained doing otherwise. Lyle and Dobbie have both been our first choice penalty takers at some point or other in the past.

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29 minutes ago, KingfaetheSooth said:

Imagine if we were involved in a penalty shoot-out in the division play-off final to get promotion, (stop laughing at the back),  and he used the lottery excuse, the fans would rightly be livid.  

We of course will win that and GN will rightly come out to praise the mental fortitude and skill of those involved.

Edited by Distant Doonhamer
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9 minutes ago, TeeMan said:

I'd imagine if he said that people would be on here going on about how he is negative and always blames the players. A manager is always going to throw out platitudes when they get beat on penalties, nothing to be gained doing otherwise. Lyle and Dobbie have both been our first choice penalty takers at some point or other in the past.

Fair point, but I still think that the majority would understand the concept of practicing in case the game (which was always going to be close IMO) went to pens.  It's the doing nothing in advance of a potential game that goes to pens to try and improve the odds in our favour that I find difficult to swallow.  I might be wrong of course, maybe he had them practicing, but his defeatist lottery comment makes me doubt that. 

All water under the bridge now, but if I was the manager, I'd have them taking pens after every training session and researching the oppositions potential  penalty takers with the GKer. 

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3 minutes ago, KingfaetheSooth said:

I'd have them taking pens after every training session and researching the oppositions potential  penalty takers with the GKer. 

I agree, especially regarding the GK, more difficult at this level but certainly for international tournaments where more players are likely to be regular penalty takers (see Jens Lehman and his paper down the shin-guard)

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1 minute ago, palmy_cammy said:

It's a big leap to get from a manager calling penalties a lottery, to concluding we don't practice penalties.

It is but if it`s a complete lottery why would you practice. As others have said there can on occasion  be some luck involved but GN`s comments would lead one to believe it`s absolute chance who comes through when it`s clearly not. I get he doesn`t want to criticise the players but much better to say something like it`s fine margins in a shoot out rather than declare it to be a lottery.

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24 minutes ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

It is but if it`s a complete lottery why would you practice. As others have said there can on occasion  be some luck involved but GN`s comments would lead one to believe it`s absolute chance who comes through when it`s clearly not. I get he doesn`t want to criticise the players but much better to say something like it`s fine margins in a shoot out rather than declare it to be a lottery.

I haven't even listened to the interview yet so I'm not overly defending him and I've already said his use of the term lottery is incorrect.  There is a random element to a shootout though, as most people have agreed.  Otherwise your two star strikers and top ten all time scorers score their penalties, and your centre half and holding midfielder miss.

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Strikers should always be first to take penalties imo, given that it is their job to score goals. The fact that Fordyce took one and Kane was nowhere to be seen is quite telling. I appreciate that he hadn’t been on long but there was no point in bringing him on if it wasn’t to score a goal. And a penalty is just about the easiest chance a striker can get. Yes, the 2 strikers missed, but that doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision for them to be first to take one.  And there was nothing unusual about Jacobs taking and scoring one given he used to take them for Livi. I still think he should have been behind Kane on the list. If Kane can’t be trusted to take a penalty, we might as well ship him back to St.Johnstone just now.

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35 minutes ago, Flash said:

Strikers should always be first to take penalties imo, given that it is their job to score goals. The fact that Fordyce took one and Kane was nowhere to be seen is quite telling. I appreciate that he hadn’t been on long but there was no point in bringing him on if it wasn’t to score a goal. And a penalty is just about the easiest chance a striker can get. Yes, the 2 strikers missed, but that doesn’t mean it was the wrong decision for them to be first to take one.  And there was nothing unusual about Jacobs taking and scoring one given he used to take them for Livi. I still think he should have been behind Kane on the list. If Kane can’t be trusted to take a penalty, we might as well ship him back to St.Johnstone just now.

Personally I'd have Kyle Jacobs first to take a penalty in open play. He was Livi's taker, rarely if ever missed for them, and hitting the bar slightly unfortunately for us in that EK shoot out doesn't change that he's the best striker of a penalty for me.

Derek Lyle is the man in possession for penalties awarded during games as he's not missed one since he started taking them but he's missed at least three in shoot outs that I'm aware of including yesterday (he also hit the bar in the infamous penalty shoot out win at Ibrox and had BJ Corr save against him for us in his Dundee days). Dobbie is on them if Lyle isn't on the pitch and yesterday was his first miss since he returned to us (scored in the three previous shoot outs and also during the game at Falkirk). However Dobbie got taken off penalties during his previous spell here because he missed a couple. He's not blemish free on them before yesterday either.

I don't think there's anything necessarily to say strikers should be your best penalty takers. Stuart Pearce and Steve Bruce are amongst the best penalty takers England has produced in recent decades for instance (yes I know Pearce infamously missed one in the World Cup).  John O'Neill was probably our most consistent penalty taker and scorer in recent years and wasn't generally a striker either, though I accept he was an attacking player who did occasionally play as a striker.

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3 hours ago, TeeMan said:

I agree, especially regarding the GK, more difficult at this level but certainly for international tournaments where more players are likely to be regular penalty takers (see Jens Lehman and his paper down the shin-guard)

The Lehman 'piece of paper' was a very clever psychological trick IMO, as it makes the penalty taker consider changing where he puts his last/usual penalty and puts doubts  in his head. 

Seb Brown did the same trick when Wimbledon beat Luton to get promoted to L2 in 2011. He saved two pens in the shoot-out.  I saw the piece of paper after the game - it was blank. 

In a similar vein, I'm not sure that players practicing penalties helps massively, except in their head as  they may be more confident going into the shoot-out thinking "we have practiced this". 

Edited by KingfaetheSooth
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