The Queen of the South thread

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Flash said:

I mentioned the play-off crowds earlier and, imo, it was a lack of belief that we were actually going to win them which contributed to the low crowds. I think if we had got to the play-off final we would have seen an upsurge.

I think the promotion buzz of 2003 does explain the crowds back then. We had been in the 2nd division for 13 consecutive seasons and were almost relegated to the 3rd. Coming back up in 2002 was a much bigger deal than it was in 2013 because we had been away from the First Division for so long. Topping that league was a new and fairly unique experience, especially considering it wasn't that long since we were bumming around near the foot of the 2nd.

Since then, we spent 10 consecutive years in the First, or Championship, with just the one year in the 2nd since 2002. Being in this division is no longer a big deal. Being top of the league early on is similarly nothing special, especially when Hibs and a newly relegated Dundee U were in the same division. Nobody seriously expected us to maintain top spot.

You're right about a general decline. But, imo, we have suffered from that in addition to the complete lack of belief. The reason Gretna were able to steal our fans was because people are attracted by success. As I said, very few people just go to the match now. They need the games to matter, with the propspect of being associated with winning. Only the committed will go to Queens v Dumbarton or whoever when there is no realistic prospect of anything coming of it. I'd like to think that if we played Dumbarton in March when we were 7 points clear at the top, we'd get a lot more than 1,350.

However, you might be right about the general population not even being excited about a genuine challenge. It is difficult to know for sure because we have never been in that position. However, if I'm completely wrong and people wouldn't even come out to see us getting promoted to the Premiership, then things are even worse than I thought. 

Did we really lose fans to Gretna?

I know it felt like a bit of an existential threat, but in reality, it probably boosted our gates, certainly for the derbies.

Gretna's version of success was certainly attractive, but only really for the type of wee fanny that surely wouldn't watch us anyway.  I get the logic about the marketing and promotion delivered in and around Dumfries and I remember the comic references on here to everyone in Georgetown supporting them.  I'd be surprised if they directly 'stole' our supporters though.  There might have been a danger with future generations if that 'success' had been sustained, but happily that wasn't an issue.

I suppose the Gretna thing shows how support in the surrounding area can be mobilised by a team that gets to play with a stacked deck.  That example was so bizarre, extreme and fleeting though, as to offer no real lessons.

[Homer Thompson]

5 minutes ago, NorthSouth said:

 

What do you mean? I mean that communication should be better Mark was doing a great job with his updates which seem to have dried up, at the supporters meeting my honest opinion was that he has started to become a bit more defensive and not as transparent. Maybe that's my negativity tho.

My hope is that when an SLO is in place again that we move forward, this will be determined on what they are able/allowed to do.

The twitter feed seems to have improved so that's a good step forward.

 

What I mean is those are pretty generic statements. I was hoping you'd have some specific ideas of things that could be done to improve  communication and the social media side - like opening the club shop for the first training sessions was a good idea.

1 minute ago, NorthSouth said:

 

What's involved in volunteering then, how do people get involved. Just contact the club? What are they looking for volunteers for? Obviously people's skill sets vary, if the club needs someone to help with an IT based email service for example I'm certainly not the man. I'm sure I could spare some time each week though if I felt that I could be of benefit.

 

Whatever you want really! And, yes, contact the club and offer whatever time and skills you have or even just ideas. 

[Doonhamer doon south]

1 minute ago, NorthSouth said:

 

What's involved in volunteering then, how do people get involved. Just contact the club? What are they looking for volunteers for? Obviously people's skill sets vary, if the club needs someone to help with an IT based email service for example I'm certainly not the man. I'm sure I could spare some time each week though if I felt that I could be of benefit.

 

I think its anything and everything really. For example it was mentioned on here in pre season about the need for volunteers to help tidy up the ground. Volunteers were needed for the parade entry to the Guid Nychburris. Volunteers to help promote matches through the week. Best to contact the club. If they turn you away then at least you tried

[Rjc-1988]

I get the points being made, but I think the extent to which promotion to the top flight is a Holy Grail for the wider local population is being overstated a bit.
Of course it feels that way for those of us that already care a lot, but I'm not convinced that it's as big for those that don't currently bother.  If it was, surely our play-off crowds would have been better.  
I just think there's been a general decline which has seen sides like Morton suffer similarly.  Our gates never got good last season, even when we were sweeping everyone aside.  Now the point has been made that gates didn't climb because it was so early and we've never challenged in the spring.  While that's true, a shift is still evident.  Back in 2003, we beat ICT in October to go top and it was a really big deal, matched with big gates.  We were still enjoying a promotion Buzz 18 months on, but that alone doesn't explain where our crowds have gone.
It's all regrettable and I'm usually happy enough to blame the board for things.  I honestly don't see big failings here though.

Just to be clear I think the BOD have done a great job in restoring the Club's finances after we effectively ran out of money. The club is well run and we have competed pretty well in past few years.

I don't see big failings either far from it but it would be great to hear some ambitious commentary to energise the support even if it is only for the benefit of the diehards.

[Monkey Tennis]

32 minutes ago, Adamski said:

I'm one of those people. I still feel quite bitter about it, and it totally changed my relationship with Queens. I probably averaged 10-15 home games a season before that vote and I've been to about 5-6 in total since. Most of the group I used to go with feel similarly - a couple haven't been back at all I think.

Time has passed, but it's passed in a way that has got me out of the habit of going. I've had kids since then too, which makes six hours away at the weekend hard to justify. I still enjoy it when I do get along although perhaps with less emotional attachment than before, and still get a rush of excitement at 4:50pm on a Saturday if I see Queens have won.

I'll not forgive the board for that disgraceful vote though. Shame on them. Unfortunately I can't see my view on Queens going back to the way it was before until those involved have left the club.

I wonder how many others have reached a similar view.  I'm inclined to think not many, but I've no real idea and anecdotal evidence on here suggests there might be a good few.

I can understand it.  I was disgusted at the time and prattled away about it endlessly on this site.  I didn't have the resolve to do anything impressive like mount a personal boycott, figuring indulgently that any such stance would do me more harm than those who made the decision.  

I did feebly decide to not go out of my way to attend if the game competed with something else though, or if I didn't much feel like it.  Previously, a sense of duty would sometimes take me to games when I could, or even should be doing something else.  The result was that I missed maybe five or six home games that season.  The fact that it was a successful season maybe prevented that number being bigger.

For me though, going to home games was rarely a hassle.  I live very near Palmerston and attending takes just two hours out of my day.  I can totally understand why fans who live well outside of Dumfries and are at a life stage where lots is happening family wise, might have stopped bothering, given how the relationship between fan and club was damaged.

Maybe the whole episode has had a lasting impact with this group.  I don't know how big that group is though, or if others in Dumfries also chucked it on that basis.

[weeredbook]

One of the factors is cost ( i am not being critical of the club ) .Dumfries and Galloway has the lowest wages in Scotland .Some people just cannot afford it .Not everyone works at Dupont or Gates ,and its simply not affordable for many.
I know of 3 guys who were disgusted at the sevco debacle who havent been back since.

[Steeplechat]

No, its unlikely to have much impact on crowds, certainly not in the short term.
I dont think many of the things that go on are promoted anywhere near enough. A simple email on a Monday or Tuesday before a home game, if there are hospitality places available, might be enough to prompt a few extra people to go. Same with things like soccer camps and the, potentially very powerful but hugely under advertised, Saturday clubs. Its not going to have a huge effect but its a little extra money coming into the club for what would be fairly minimal effort - once the initial setup has been done, of course.
ETA - it also doesnt have to be used for marketing. It could be used to send a "welcome" email to kids coming to soccer camps or a "thank you" afterwards with pics etc, or to ask hospitality guests what they thought. Theres a whole range of things

Absolutely spot on

[Monkey Tennis]

18 minutes ago, weeredbook said:

One of the factors is cost ( i am not being critical of the club ) .Dumfries and Galloway has the lowest wages in Scotland .Some people just cannot afford it .Not everyone works at Dupont or Gates ,and its simply not affordable for many.
I know of 3 guys who were disgusted at the sevco debacle who havent been back since.

You're maybe right.

Football is too expensive, but as you say, it's hard to criticise the club on this, given that our prices have been frozen for a long time.  It's hard to see how we could operate while charging much less.

The wider point is potentially valid though, if we're considering why gates have declined significantly.  This has gone from traditionally being a relatively affluent corner of the country to one which markedly isn't, with the low average wages that you mention.  

It's not hard to imagine that having had an impact; much harder to imagine what a small football club can do about it.

[kleinfaethetoon]

Outside the council or nhs, retail is the biggest employer who rates of pay are either minimum wage or a shade above, people will think twice about paying the entrance fee

[Doonhamer doon south]

Mr x and SD is it possible for the board to come out with a fresh update on the club perhaps issue a rallying call. There seems to be a fair few people not in attendance due to their feelings on the board. The board could try and clear the air on this issue. The fans need to feel appreciated as well as feel the belief in the club.

[kleinfaethetoon]

You're right, but how?

They need to bring somebody into the club with a retail/business background to actively sell the club to people and put out a positive spin on the future of the club

[Monkey Tennis]

5 minutes ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

Mr x and SD is it possible for the board to come out with a fresh update on the club perhaps issue a rallying call. There seems to be a fair few people not in attendance due to their feelings on the board. The board could try and clear the air on this issue. The fans need to feel appreciated as well as feel the belief in the club.

Do you mean "clear the air" regarding the Rangers vote?

I can't see that happening, given that it was over five years ago.  I'd imagine it's a topic they've no desire to revisit.  Any statement would need to be a lot more convincing than that offered at the time.

A general rallying call would be different of course, but then I don't think that any such thing would undo the sense of grievance you think needs fixing.

[Doonhamer doon south]

Do you mean "clear the air" regarding the Rangers vote?
I can't see that happening, given that it was over five years ago.  I'd imagine it's a topic they've no desire to revisit.  Any statement would need to be a lot more convincing than that offered at the time.
A general rallying call would be different of course, but then I don't think that any such thing would undo the sense of grievance you think needs fixing.

Something might be better than nothing. Doesn't necessarily have to mention the vote but it could just talk about the future. A move on from the past statement. I don't have a grievance but there are those out there that do. Addressing them may help to bring the fans back. Like I say nothing wrong in trying and if nothing else it helps keep the board in touch with the fans.

[Steeplechat]

Absolutely spot on

Is there any reason the Saturday Club is under advertised ?
Can't be that hard to advertise it at least a week before each home fixture and then take contact details off the kids parents so they can be either emailed of texted about future events etc

[louisxiv]

13 hours ago, Rjc-1988 said:

 

My original post on the general subject of ambition and belief is similar to your theme.

I agree that we have been out of the top flight for so long that the fans just don't believe it can happen to us. If you look at teams in a similar bracket to us we are one of the few if not the only team from our broad peer group who have not taken our place in the top league over the past 50 years.

Teams like Airdrie, Morton, Raith, Hamilton, Dumbarton Falkirk,Inverness, Livvy, Ayr - have all had seats at top table. I have excluded Gretna and Ross County due to the financing that they have benefitted from and you could probably add Livvy as well.

If you take two individuals or two teams of broadly equal ability - one with burning ambition and one with a "what will be attitude" it is pretty obvious that the ambition will drive results and achievement on a bigger scale over the piece.

Don't get me wrong with the sort of competition that we have faced in recent years an over supply of drive and ambition would not have gained us promotion. I remember Dobbie saying upon his arrival - " that he had unfinished business here and he wanted to help take us up". I loved that comment because it is exactly what I wanted to hear - someone who was thinking big and had a clear objective. I don't think I heard anyone at the club reinforcing Dobbie's statement and it was really left out there as a "lone voice".

This year is a perfect case in point - as things stand we are about 8/1 to 10/1 to win the league. If we were to string some good results together in next few weeks we might just shorten to around 5/1. Now that is as short as we have probably ever been in recent memory so it reinforces the fact this years title race is wide open.

I may be in the minority - no surprise there, but we need the Management and Club in general to start leading us on this journey. I would bet that Dobbie will already be looking at the table and the competition and thinking we can win this but we need more than him believing especially Gary Naysmith.

The team with biggest budget doesn't always prevail. Of course it would take a monumental effort for us to edge out say Dundee United but of course it is possible.

I get all the other reasons why crowds are dropping alarmingly at Palmy but the biggest single reason is the lack of belief that we can really compete to achieve promotion.

 

All of this is true and nicely put. 

[Homer Thompson]

10 hours ago, kleinfaethetoon said:

 

They need to bring somebody into the club with a retail/business background to actively sell the club to people and put out a positive spin on the future of the club

 

Thats not going to happen, though, certainly not in the short term.

9 hours ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

Something might be better than nothing. Doesn't necessarily have to mention the vote but it could just talk about the future. A move on from the past statement. I don't have a grievance but there are those out there that do. Addressing them may help to bring the fans back. Like I say nothing wrong in trying and if nothing else it helps keep the board in touch with the fans.

An update from the Board is definitely overdue but Im not sure exactly what it could say in terms of the past that would make any difference. Im sure there will be mention of the season so far and the targets for the season but again its hard to see what could be said that would make much difference.

1 hour ago, Steeplechat said:

 

 

Is there any reason the Saturday Club is under advertised ?
Can't be that hard to advertise it at least a week before each home fixture and then take contact details off the kids parents so they can be either emailed of texted about future events etc

 

 

To be honest, there isnt really a particular reason. Its just one of those things thats always slipped under the radar with so many other things to do.

In my opinion, though, its something that could be really important in getting young fans into the club. Theyre at the club for a couple of hours training, lunch and then watch the match - its a perfect opportunity to get them hooked, especially as they can come along without their parents who they might then persuade to come with them later on.

[louisxiv]

12 hours ago, Adamski said:

I'm one of those people. I still feel quite bitter about it, and it totally changed my relationship with Queens. I probably averaged 10-15 home games a season before that vote and I've been to about 5-6 in total since. Most of the group I used to go with feel similarly - a couple haven't been back at all I think.

Time has passed, but it's passed in a way that has got me out of the habit of going. I've had kids since then too, which makes six hours away at the weekend hard to justify. I still enjoy it when I do get along although perhaps with less emotional attachment than before, and still get a rush of excitement at 4:50pm on a Saturday if I see Queens have won.

I'll not forgive the board for that disgraceful vote though. Shame on them. Unfortunately I can't see my view on Queens going back to the way it was before until those involved have left the club.

It's a damn shame that happened and I hope the board still feel some of that shame. I too was horrified by the decision the club took re the vote. I know many people who took a personal decision to boycott Palmy on the back of it and I respect their decision. Thankfully they're back now. I've been accused of being obsessed but this for me is the reason I can't bear to watch us play in red.  Added to the white and blue it sends a shudder down my spine. Rangers in disguise? It's unrealistic, I guess, to expect any formal statement about the vote after all this time but I'd love us to publicly bin the idea of ever playing in red again. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by louisxiv

[Jimbig]

Why is this form dragging up a issue about a football club that does not now exist ! The new club were given a chance no other organisation or business would have been afforded. Any other organisations premises would have been sold by the liquidator to help pay at least some of their debts, yet they allowed to keep all of their assets, while suppliers were left to foot the bill,!!  This was completely wrong and they should hang their heads in shame that they let this happen. Yes some have short memories when it suits them.

Forget them for goodness sake, and follow and support your home town team. Queen of the South.

[louisxiv]

18 minutes ago, Jimbig said:

Why is this form dragging up a issue about a football club that does not now exist ! The new club were given a chance no other organisation or business would have been afforded. Any other organisations premises would have been sold by the liquidator to help pay at least some of their debts, yet they allowed to keep all of their assets, while suppliers were left to foot the bill,!!  This was completely wrong and they should hang their heads in shame that they let this happen. Yes some have short memories when it suits them.

Forget them for goodness sake, and follow and support your home town team. Queen of the South.

Indeed. They have very short memories, and an uncanny ability to turn a blind eye to history when that too suits them. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by louisxiv

[KingfaetheSooth]

16 hours ago, Adamski said:

I'm one of those people. I still feel quite bitter about it, and it totally changed my relationship with Queens. I probably averaged 10-15 home games a season before that vote and I've been to about 5-6 in total since. Most of the group I used to go with feel similarly - a couple haven't been back at all I think.

Time has passed, but it's passed in a way that has got me out of the habit of going. I've had kids since then too, which makes six hours away at the weekend hard to justify. I still enjoy it when I do get along although perhaps with less emotional attachment than before, and still get a rush of excitement at 4:50pm on a Saturday if I see Queens have won.

I'll not forgive the board for that disgraceful vote though. Shame on them. Unfortunately I can't see my view on Queens going back to the way it was before until those involved have left the club.

I think a lot of people feel the same way. The Board supporting Sevco in the vote without any discussion or thoughts about the views of supporters was an own goal of the highest magnitude. Its not something that fans get over in time either.  

The Board still don't appear to have learnt any lessons as communication with fans is still very poor IMHO. I don't think a replacement fan liaison person is the answer either, but at least it would be a start. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by KingfaetheSooth