The Queen of the South thread

[capt_oats]

26 minutes ago, Rjc-1988 said:

Good feedback and perhaps suggests that young Thomas needs a permanent change of scene and a fresh start.

 

He definitely does. For whatever reason it just hasn't worked out for him here. Cadden's actually a good example. There was a player ahead of him (Liam Grimshaw) who we had on loan from Man United whose permanent deal fell through. McGhee turned to Cadden to play in that area of the park and he took his chance and is now a fixture in the side.

Thomas on the other hand, is clearly a talented player who has been given chances but he's never done enough to establish himself yet he's seen contemporaries from his u20s side like Cadden and Ross MacLean move ahead of him in the pecking order for the wide positions and Allan Campbell's 2 years younger than him and became a first team regular in midfield last season while Thomas continues to be a peripheral figure. There's almost certainly a reason for that. Yes, guys like Johnson, Ainsworth and Frear were/are "better" players than him but when his peers from the 20s are stepping into the first team ahead of him you'd hope that would be a wake up call.

Ultimately as it stands Frear's looked good for us, Cadden has the right side nailed down, MacLean has been great in pre-season and we've signed Craig Tanner from Reading who looks to be essentially the same type of player as Thomas. It's difficult to see where he's going to get regular first team football at Fir Park tbh.

Edited July 9, 2017 by capt_oats

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Rjc-1988 said:

 

It is all pretty academic now as it looks very unlikely that Thomas will return to us. He was undoubtedly a good player for us and I find it very surprising that he has failed to make a bigger impact at Motherwell at a time when they have really struggled.

I may be in the minority but I find it very difficult to think of Thomas as a right winger when he can barely touch the ball with his right foot. Nithsdale Wanderer makes exactly the same observation as I did when he was here - his undoubted skill and trickery was heavily diluted because he constantly had to stop when in a really dangerous position to cut on to his strong left foot rather than keep pressing forward and committing that final defender.

You are probably correct Thomas thinks he is better suited to playing on right but with his ability he should really have no difficulty being an integral part of a weak Motherwell squad. I think if he was to favour a left midfield role and concentrated on delivering from his natural side he would be a much more potent force. Most teams are crying out for good left pegs to balance the shape.

What made it worse for me is that Danny as genuine right sider was effectively stuck out wide left where he was largely anonymous.

It is "water under bridge" but if I was Dom Thomas I would be asking myself " with natural ability in spades and talent to burn" why are a bottom 6 Prem team contemplating loaning me out again to another Champ team?

 

Thats all fine. You and Nithsdale Wanderer can prefer whatever tactics you like. As can the manager clearly. My issue was with the implication that Naysmith was consciously playing him somewhere alien to him when in fact he consistently played him in the same position he has played for all or at least most of his career to date.

[Rjc-1988]

Thats all fine. You and Nithsdale Wanderer can prefer whatever tactics you like. As can the manager clearly. My issue was with the implication that Naysmith was consciously playing him somewhere alien to him when in fact he consistently played him in the same position he has played for all or at least most of his career to date.

I never said that it was alien to him - I agree that the player probably wants to play there but his career isn't exactly taking off and when you watch him week in week out he becomes easy to defend against when teams realise that showing him on to his weak right foot seriously limits his effectiveness.

At end of day Manager has made that call - it didn't mean that Thomas wasn't a success because he was decent but it did mean that our longstanding wide left problem was still an issue and I don't think it helped a returning Carmichael who was low in confidence after injury.

[Besty]

4 hours ago, Mr X said:

This. Rankin isnt as good defensively as Jacobs and isnt as good on the ball as Tapping. He, ironically, is possibly a better all round player than both, though - although that might change if Tapping stays fit and hits form.

I've nothing against Rankin, hes a decent player but I'd start Jacobs and Tapping ahead of him.

You can't drop he captain surely?

[Homer Thompson]

51 minutes ago, Besty said:

You can't drop he captain surely?

Higgins spent a while on the bench last season. He captain too long time.

And dont call me Shirley

[Skyline Drifter]

2 hours ago, Rjc-1988 said:

 

I never said that it was alien to him 

 

I never said you did. My post was a reply to Nithsdale Wanderer before you had commented on the issue.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Skyline Drifter

[Nithsdale Wanderer]

I never said that it was alien to him either !

Merely pointing out that, in my opinion, he was not being utilised in the most effective way given his natural attributes.

The same applies to Carmichael as Rjc as has pointed out.

Anyone that thinks he is better on the left, go and watch his display in the April 'ripping apart' of Rangers and also his sublime cross for Lyle at Ibrox in the play-off game.

Perhaps Mr.Naysmith should do that too.

[Skyline Drifter]

11 hours ago, Nithsdale Wanderer said:

This would not be Thomas' fault,  but I could not stand another season watching him, or any other winger who has the pace to get beyond full-backs, constantly stopping and turning back and losing the advantage of the attacking opportunity because they are playing on their 'wrong side'.  The Manager obviously favours this approach though as the players are acting under his direction.

 

8 hours ago, Nithsdale Wanderer said:

Started well then fizzled out and became very frustrating getting into good positions only to stop and turn back.   His shooting deteriorated and never seemed to want to cross it.  Del was often in a good position for  a cross but must have wondered why bother after a while.  On the occasion he did cross it, Lyle scored against Morton but the move was never repeated,

  As I said, not his fault but the Managers.

 

1 hour ago, Nithsdale Wanderer said:

I never said that it was alien to him either !

Merely pointing out that, in my opinion, he was not being utilised in the most effective way given his natural attributes.

You were pretty clearly implying that this perceived ineffectiveness was down to the manager asking him to do something he wasnt comfortable with.

[19QOS19]

...when you watch him week in week out he becomes easy to defend against when teams realise that showing him on to his weak right foot seriously limits his effectiveness.

The side he starts on is irrelevant then surely? If defenders know to show him on to his right foot then they'd just show him inside if he was on the left side?

Anyone that thinks he is better on the left, go and watch his display in the April 'ripping apart' of Rangers and also his sublime cross for Lyle at Ibrox in the play-off game.
Perhaps Mr.Naysmith should do that too.

That's probably the only example of a sublime Carmichael cross tbh. His deliveries are generally awful which is why I think he's not a great loss at RM. I understand why managers do what Naysmith does. The problem with Carmichael playing on the left and cutting in is his reluctance to have a shot. Thomas had numerous attempts but I can't ever recall Dan having a pop. There was one game at Palmerston (was it against Hibs?) where he was on the edge of the box and had time to shoot but he was more interested in trying to pass. Clearly lacks the confidence to have a go unfortunately.

[Broony88]

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

The side he starts on is irrelevant then surely? If defenders know to show him on to his right foot then they'd just show him inside if he was on the left side?




That's probably the only example of a sublime Carmichael cross tbh. His deliveries are generally awful which is why I think he's not a great loss at RM. I understand why managers do what Naysmith does. The problem with Carmichael playing on the left and cutting in is his reluctance to have a shot. Thomas had numerous attempts but I can't ever recall Dan having a pop. There was one game at Palmerston (was it against Hibs?) where he was on the edge of the box and had time to shoot but he was more interested in trying to pass. Clearly lacks the confidence to have a go unfortunately.

 

You are talking about defenders that are playing in the Scottish championship remember. What they should do and what they do are usually wildly different. Just look at how many times Ross Forbes scored and assisted from being allowed to cut inside and either shoot or cross. Forbes is slower than a week in jail and his right foot rarely touches the ball yet time and again players didn't do what you say the should. 

[Guest Flash]

Carmichael may have his faults when playing on the right, but playing him on the left doesn't improve them, it just makes him worse. So, if he is on the left, the team is weaker than it is when he is on the right.

I don't know how good Thomas would be on the left because he barely played there for us. He had about 15 minutes at home to Falkirk, when nobody gave him the ball. And another short spell at Falkirk where he had an assist. He may have played there at other times in games I wasn't at. It would have been nice to see him play there a bit more because after his initial few games, he looked pretty ineffective on the right.

It appears that Naysmith thought playing Thomas on the right added more to the team than it lost from having Carmichael on the left. While this may have been the case initially, it didn't look that way for the majority of the time. Which leads to the conclusion that Naysmith has an inflexible approach to this aspect of the game. The conclusion may be wrong, but that is how it appears.

[Fae_the_'briggs]

14 hours ago, kirkyblue2 said:

If you have to cut in to cross the ball then what are you doing on that wing?

I think it's more to do with cutting inside and getting shots at goal with your stronger foot. Crossing from the right with your left foot (or vice versa) tends to give inswinging deliveries which I would say are more difficult to defend against.

[palmy_cammy]

I love that we are using Naysmith playing a player that doesn't even play for us anymore, in the position he has always played, as a stick to beat him with.

This is going to be a fun season.

[Northfield 53]

Are  Carmichael and Ferguson out injured ?

Dobbie and McFadden up top 

McFadden looks as fit as Lyle does just now Lyle well off the pace 

[JessieField]

Need to get McFadden signed first before he can play up top with Dobbie!

[Guest Flash]

37 minutes ago, palmy_cammy said:

I love that we are using Naysmith playing a player that doesn't even play for us anymore, in the position he has always played, as a stick to beat him with.

This is going to be a fun season.

A fair point, but it is also the fact that he played Carmichael on the left that is an issue. He hasn't always played there and I don't think anybody would argue that it is his best position. So, if Naysmith is planning on playing him there this season and is currently looking for a left sided player to play on the right (where Carmiachael is best suited) the point is relevant to this season too.

[Homer Thompson]

1 minute ago, Flash said:

A fair point, but it is also the fact that he played Carmichael on the left that is an issue. He hasn't always played there and I don't think anybody would argue that it is his best position. So, if Naysmith is planning on playing him there this season and is currently looking for a left sided player to play on the right (where Carmiachael is best suited) the point is relevant to this season too.

Theres nothing to suggest he is though. Stirling has played on the right in pre-season so it would seem he has been brought in to play on the there. Whether Carmichael competes with him or plays on the left remains to be seen.

McFadden played on both wings during the game at Annan.

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Theres nothing to suggest he is though. Stirling has played on the right in pre-season so it would seem he has been brought in to play on the there. Whether Carmichael competes with him or plays on the left remains to be seen.

McFadden played on both wings during the game at Annan.

Stirling is comfortable on both sides as well, he's good with both feet. He played his best stuff on the left for us but he would quite often interchange throughout the match.

[Guest Flash]

9 minutes ago, Mr X said:

Theres nothing to suggest he is though. Stirling has played on the right in pre-season so it would seem he has been brought in to play on the there. Whether Carmichael competes with him or plays on the left remains to be seen.

McFadden played on both wings during the game at Annan.

Fair enough, I've not seen any pre-season games. I did notice that Bell played on the right and Carmichael on the left for a spell in the Cowdenbeath game (I think). Of course, you can try out all sorts of things in pre-season games, so doesn't mean much.

It looks to me that if Carmichael does play, it will be on the left, which is an indication that Naysmith has a preference for playing wingers on the "wrong" side, whether it suits them or not. I could be wrong. But the point would still appear to be relevant this season.

Edited July 10, 2017 by Flash

[Homer Thompson]

36 minutes ago, Flash said:

Fair enough, I've not seen any pre-season games. I did notice that Bell played on the right and Carmichael on the left for a spell in the Cowdenbeath game (I think). Of course, you can try out all sorts of things in pre-season games, so doesn't mean much.

It looks to me that if Carmichael does play, it will be on the left, which is an indication that Naysmith has a preference for playing wingers on the "wrong" side, whether it suits them or not. I could be wrong. But the point would still appear to be relevant this season.

It only becomes relevant this season if

a) he actually does it; and

b) it doesnt work