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Livingston - all the threads merged

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Livi_Lyon    1
There is absolutely no doubt that David Hay has been a major influence in the Italians taking over the club. It remains to be seen whether or not his assessment of what LFC were (or were perceived to be) has any resemblence to reality in 2008. I think perception and reality might well be a lot further apart than is comfortable for a few involved individuals.

I understand your hopes of growth for LFC, however I feel it's more in hope than belief. It wasn't so long ago that there was much preening down Almondvale way over claims of 4,000 season ticket holders. What was conveniently omitted from the blurb was that over half were paying next to nothing for the tickets, and the poor old Mr McGuinnes was being creamed for several million over and above additional debt being accrued by the football business. I doubt that LFC will ever grow organically to a point where it will ever meaningfully impact upon Hibs or Hearts or the OF. At th eend of the day, be you East West or Mid Lothian, then Hearts Hibs and the OF will always be the attraction that matters, and LFC will only draw people away when admission is for next to nothing, and/or the club are spending cash they don't have.

Long-term existance would satisfy me. Of course Hibs/Hearts/OF will always be bigger than Livingston. But I still feel that we have decent growth potential, especially if we manage to get back into the SPL.

I don't remember there being any big subsidies in season ticket prices when we were doing well. Scottish football crowds in general were bigger back then. I think Dominic Keane just over-spent on players (and that stupid office block).

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LIVIFOREVER    636
I'd hope that for those 25 years you showed more attention to detail than this.

One thing i didn't do was get involved with a football club. ;)

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MCL    8
Eh, I don't see where Massone say's they agreed to pay this debt as part of the deal, but the likelyhood is they are being paid is becuase these are the type of creditors than can easily call for a winding up order. Smaller debtors are unlikely to do that becuse of the amounts.

It is still an option though, no matter how small the debt.

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Guest StevenC   
Guest StevenC

Its ok MCL, as we're Fake Fans, we won't mind sending the club we love packing into the abyss of Administration.

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Long-term existance would satisfy me. Of course Hibs/Hearts/OF will always be bigger than Livingston. But I still feel that we have decent growth potential, especially if we manage to get back into the SPL.

I don't remember there being any big subsidies in season ticket prices when we were doing well. Scottish football crowds in general were bigger back then. I think Dominic Keane just over-spent on players (and that stupid office block).

Oh, there were MASSIVE subsidies in season tickets back then including "two for the price of one" or even "three for the price of one" where two were juniors. Even then, the price of the season ticket was extremely low. Of course, one way or the other, the debt simply climbed and climbed with one ex hospital porter effectively being the guarantor for a good chunk of it.

The growth potential you speak of applies equally (and probably more so) to St Johnstone, Dundee FC, Greenock Morton, Partick Thistle, Dunfermline, QotS, Raith Rovers and Ross County. All "potentially" much bigger than Livingston. Now the one thing I do know is that those in charge at Livingston have been little short of staggered at the lack of numbers coming through the gate, and were expecting crowds greater than 4,000 (this was extrapolated from Livvy's "smoke, mirrors and funny money" days when the numbers were boosted by the club effectively being a creche taht was cheaper even than the local cinema.....those days are gone. It is still staggering how many people get into football and despite their supposed business acumen, fall flat on their faces. I know rather well a chap who has been involved at the coal face of football club administration, and he says you always but always run into the same root problem.....ego....and a belief that things (money) will be much much better in the SPL.

Edited by Duncan Freemason

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Livi    1
It is still an option though, no matter how small the debt.

Agreed - I was just making the point large creditors do it every day and are used to the process. While the club might be daft they are not stupid and to steady the ship you sort these creditors first and generally sort the smaller ones later (maybe hoping some of them go away?)

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Agreed - I was just making the point large creditors do it every day and are used to the process. While the club might be daft they are not stupid and to steady the ship you sort these creditors first and generally sort the smaller ones later (maybe hoping some of them go away?)

Isn't there any amazement down Livingston way that after the administration 13 or so years ago (where debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), and the administration three or so years ago (where millions of pounds of debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), that here we are in 2008 and you talking about financially "steadying the ship". Doesn't it say something about the whole way business has been done at Almondvale?

Hypothetically, if Livingston were again to enter administration, would Livvy fans think that was morally and ethically ok?

Edited by Duncan Freemason

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Isn't there any amazement down Livingston way that after the administration 13 or so years ago (where debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), and the administration three or so years ago (where millions of pounds of debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), that here we are in 2008 and you talking about financially "steadying the ship". Doesn't it say something about the whole way business has been done at Almondvale?

Hypothetically, if Livingston were again to enter administration, would Livvy fans think that was morally and ethically ok?

There is merely amazement, Duncan, that you are actually still ranting on about it.

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Livi Crazy    0

Too many Livi fans cant tell the difference between "doom and gloom" and reality. These fans are the ones who have seen more of within the club than most fans. Too many of the fans are being sucked in, believing that Massone and his cronies are the messiah's we've always been looking for. Pearse was a clever businessman, a cruel businessman, but clever none the less, I suspect that all creditors are signed to Livingston FC the business, and that means whoever owns the club at the time. I for one, don't trust the Italian Consortium, I am not getting carried away with a little success on the field. Too much of what they are saying are pretty much what the gullible Livi wants want to here, both the "Letter to the fans" and that post online, are filled with typical business talk. Look at any PLCs anual reports and the chairman and managing director will talk a lot of shit about the things they are improving but they will generally leave out the not so good stuff, look at some of the annual reports of some businesses that have went out of business years ago, I'm sure you would find the same talk (old Safeway for example, I doubt they will have been saying, oh we are throwing money away and are close to going out of business, but they did).

Open your eyes, fair enough, get behind them, but they have to gain trust, has nobody learned from our three previous chairmen, that they should not be instantly trusted, but if things are still good in a few years and all bad rumours and facts have gone, then they will have gained trust. Trusting them entirely, when he is telling some of our most long term loyal fans to "go and support Celtic and Rangers", after only a few months, its not good.

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Guest strathbrock   
Guest strathbrock
Isn't there any amazement down Livingston way that after the administration 13 or so years ago (where debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), and the administration three or so years ago (where millions of pounds of debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), that here we are in 2008 and you talking about financially "steadying the ship". Doesn't it say something about the whole way business has been done at Almondvale?

Hypothetically, if Livingston were again to enter administration, would Livvy fans think that was morally and ethically ok?

Duncan Freeman, you are now talking a lot of sense. Be assured that this Livi fan is not happy about the way things have gone through the reigns of Keane and Flynn. I got sucked in to supporting what is my local team 13 years ago and for my sins I am still a die hard fan in spite of the sh*te we have had to put up with in recent times from our previous owners. I'd love us to be run by a consortium of local business men a la Dunfermline or a die hard fan like Dundee United or an astute business man like Aberdeen but we are much to young a club for that. So we are at the mercy of the latest individual or group that comes along and wants to use the club for 5 minutes to try out some experiment or other. I just like football and I like following my local team. Like you or any other fan I have to just put up with whatever happens in the Boardroom. We have a wee core of fans now who will follow the team till its death throws. After the heady days of 3rd in the SPL they have been to hell and back with administration, relegation fights, court cases and signing bans to name but a few and are still hanging on in there. I enjoyed the bottom league as much as the top league and if we manage to avoid ultimately going bust and end up back in the third I'll still be there. In the meantime all the fans of other clubs out there who are thoroughly enjoying this latest (mini?) crisis at Livi don't forget to look over your shoulder from time to time. If HBOS, Lehmann and XL can go from prosperity to trouble so quickly it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some presently prosperous football clubs could do likewise.

I look forward to you getting back to bleating on about our Celtic connections cos it will mean there's nothing much else for you to snipe at. ;)

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LIVIFOREVER    636
Oh, there were MASSIVE subsidies in season tickets back then including "two for the price of one" or even "three for the price of one" where two were juniors. Even then, the price of the season ticket was extremely low.

Bollocks, there were family tickets that gave you a child for £30 ontop of the adults price but no two for one deals or 3 for 1, season tickets were £240 west stand i think, i had one but hard to mind exactly what it was, christ knows where your getting this pish from and you a Falkirk fan, bloody sure i don't know the price of your ST 4 years ago.

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Duncan Freeman, you are now talking a lot of sense. Be assured that this Livi fan is not happy about the way things have gone through the reigns of Keane and Flynn. I got sucked in to supporting what is my local team 13 years ago and for my sins I am still a die hard fan in spite of the sh*te we have had to put up with in recent times from our previous owners. I'd love us to be run by a consortium of local business men a la Dunfermline or a die hard fan like Dundee United or an astute business man like Aberdeen but we are much to young a club for that. So we are at the mercy of the latest individual or group that comes along and wants to use the club for 5 minutes to try out some experiment or other. I just like football and I like following my local team. Like you or any other fan I have to just put up with whatever happens in the Boardroom. We have a wee core of fans now who will follow the team till its death throws. After the heady days of 3rd in the SPL they have been to hell and back with administration, relegation fights, court cases and signing bans to name but a few and are still hanging on in there. I enjoyed the bottom league as much as the top league and if we manage to avoid ultimately going bust and end up back in the third I'll still be there. In the meantime all the fans of other clubs out there who are thoroughly enjoying this latest (mini?) crisis at Livi don't forget to look over your shoulder from time to time. If HBOS, Lehmann and XL can go from prosperity to trouble so quickly it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some presently prosperous football clubs could do likewise.

I look forward to you getting back to bleating on about our Celtic connections cos it will mean there's nothing much else for you to snipe at. ;)

Au contraire. Wimbledon fans were so pissed off when their club was franchise to Milton Keynes, that they formed their own club, AFC Wimbledon. A club that is thriving and will be back in the English football league one day. A club that is run by the fans for the fans. A club where by being a member of the trust, you have a stake and own part of your football club. There is another way. ;)

Anyway, it seems to me that a few Meadowbank/Livingston fans have used the birth of a new club, following the death of Meadowbank Thistle to carry out business with Lavvie FC. They seem to have had their hands burnt...some more than once! A lot of the rest of the Lavvie fans are Johnny-come-late and would believe ANYTHING that any club owner told them.

I file Livingston FC with the Mk Dongs - a plastic football club!

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LIVIFOREVER    636
Au contraire. Wimbledon fans were so pissed off when their club was franchise to Milton Keynes, that they formed their own club, AFC Wimbledon. A club that is thriving and will be back in the English football league one day. A club that is run by the fans for the fans. A club where by being a member of the trust, you have a stake and own part of your football club. There is another way. ;)

Anyway, it seems to me that a few Meadowbank/Livingston fans have used the birth of a new club, following the death of Meadowbank Thistle to carry out business with Lavvie FC. They seem to have had their hands burnt...some more than once! A lot of the rest of the Lavvie fans are Johnny-come-late and would believe ANYTHING that any club owner told them.

I file Livingston FC with the Mk Dongs - a plastic football club!

Heres the prime example of the Livi hater, or as commonly known as a twat. :D

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Guest strathbrock   
Guest strathbrock
I file Livingston FC with the Mk Dongs - a plastic football club!

Aye, we ken. ^_^

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LIVIFOREVER    636
Too many Livi fans cant tell the difference between "doom and gloom" and reality. These fans are the ones who have seen more of within the club than most fans. Too many of the fans are being sucked in, believing that Massone and his cronies are the messiah's we've always been looking for. Pearse was a clever businessman, a cruel businessman, but clever none the less, I suspect that all creditors are signed to Livingston FC the business, and that means whoever owns the club at the time. I for one, don't trust the Italian Consortium, I am not getting carried away with a little success on the field. Too much of what they are saying are pretty much what the gullible Livi wants want to here, both the "Letter to the fans" and that post online, are filled with typical business talk. Look at any PLCs anual reports and the chairman and managing director will talk a lot of shit about the things they are improving but they will generally leave out the not so good stuff, look at some of the annual reports of some businesses that have went out of business years ago, I'm sure you would find the same talk (old Safeway for example, I doubt they will have been saying, oh we are throwing money away and are close to going out of business, but they did).

Open your eyes, fair enough, get behind them, but they have to gain trust, has nobody learned from our three previous chairmen, that they should not be instantly trusted, but if things are still good in a few years and all bad rumours and facts have gone, then they will have gained trust. Trusting them entirely, when he is telling some of our most long term loyal fans to "go and support Celtic and Rangers", after only a few months, its not good.

FFS you backed Flynn and are still doing so, hardly in a possition to criticise anyone willing to give the chairman a break, they've been getting it tight from these individuals before a ball was kicked, they've inherited all the misstrust from DK and Flynns eras, they're not even getting a bloody season to see where we are, all this shite is from when Flynn was in charge, if the club had zero debt when these guys took over then i'd see the justification in giving them shit, but they've inherited the debt and are saying they are managing it without cause for concern, what exactly are you or anyone else gaining by heaping shit on them anyway.

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Heres the prime example of the Livi hater, or as commonly known as a twat. :D

A hater with just cause though. I was at the protests agaist fat blobby.

Aye, we ken. ^_^

Indeed. Just need to keep reminding you though.

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LIVIFOREVER    636
A hater with just cause though. I was at the protests agaist fat blobby.

Indeed. Just need to keep reminding you though.

Really, you don't. :rolleyes:

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Guest strathbrock   
Guest strathbrock
There is another way. ;)

This is true but maybe there were more bodies to call on for such a feat after 113 years of existence and a fair sized fan base.

West Lothian fans have got a taste now for local league football so if things continue the way they have at Livingston for so long and it all went belly up I would not rule out an attempt to get something started. Don't forget there is also no pyramid system here in Scotland for clubs to progress to the third division which makes the scenario of plastic francise clubs that bit more more likely.

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