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Livingston - all the threads merged

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Guest el bawbag
All of this makes me sick. I'm aware of various debts accrued by the Anthill Mob that they have yet to pay. It's not all down to them being left debt by Pearse Flynn. All this talk of fake fans and folk not being prepared to wait a couple of days for a couple of pounds is just pure pish. And the majority of fans on the Livi fans web site seem to have bought it hook line and sinker. I fear for the future of Livingston Football Club. I really do. :(

my guess is your phil off livi lions?

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I'd say the fake fan comment is aimed at the 4 or 5 who've been undermining everything the Italians have done since coming in, ones spreading rumours and criticising things like not selling our best players. We've got a decent team together, brought back a feelgood factor and yet at every point these "fake fans" have tried to bring doom and gloom to it, they wont come out and say anything relevent that can be discussed, just smoke and mirrors comment. Flynn is a rogue, he did nothing but court bad publicity from the first season and i for one am happy to see Massone sue his ass, also these guys chasing debts from Flynns time, i find it funny how they didn't say all this stuff till the Italians took over, smell a soft touch did they, seems like Massones not going to just roll over for them though.

It's no funnier than the number of Livvy fans who believe every word they are told by their owners (past and present) and see anyone who isn't completely convinced as trouble makers. I remember well enough how everyone else was "jealous" of Livvy when they questioned (from a very early stage) how the numbers stacked up when Dominic Keane was at the helm. I remember too that there was one punter who accused PF of being nothing more than a "flim flam merchant" virtually in the first week of his tenure. Again, shot to pieces for daring to question in any way the integrity of anyone running their beloved club. Now here we are again... does anyone see just the tiniest wee potential for a pattern developing here? And no, this time I am not on about the inability to run the club without a Celtic connection somewhere in the food chain.

I've long considered Livingston a particularly grubby outfit (and no, that's not a reflection on the supporters......it's simply that it's a club has always been run in a less than savoury manner....both in a financial sense, and a "spirit of the game" sense). Time will tell if things are different this time around. However, I think there's a 50-50 chance that the owners haven't done their homework wrt existing debt, and revenue streams into the club (on a trend basis).

Edited by Duncan Freemason

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im sure the italians knew they were taking on a certain amount of debt but pearse's track record makes me think it is more than likely that he has done something dodgy. who's responsibility it is to pay will depend on whether the take over deal said "we(italians) will pay these debts and you(pearse) will pay those debts" etc.

It 's the responsibilty of Livingston Football Club to pay the debts.

It was sold as a going concern so all debts were included. They can't pick and choose which debts to pay and they can't have an agreement between Pearse and Angelo without the creditors agreeing to the conditions.

It's not like admin where creditors sign a CVA. There is even continuity on the board with Vivien and Maurice still directors.

All invoices were made out to Livingston Football Club, not 'whoever happens to own Livingston Football Club at the time of issue'

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It's no funnier than the number of Livvy fans who believe every word they are told by their owners (past and present) and see anyone who isn't completely convinced as trouble makers. I remember well enough how everyone else was "jealous" of Livvy when they questioned (from a very early stage) how the numbers stacked up when Dominic Keane was at the helm. I remember too that there was one punter who accused PF of being nothing more than a "flim flam merchant" virtually in the first week of his tenure. Again, shot to pieces for daring to question in any way the integrity of anyone running their beloved club. Now here we are again... does anyone see just the tiniest wee potential for a pattern developing here? And no, this time I am not on about the inability to run the club without a Celtic connection somewhere in the food chain.

I've long considered Livingston a particularly grubby outfit (and no, that's not a reflection on the supporters......it's simply that it's a club has always been run in a less than savoury manner....both in a financial sense, and a "spirit of the game" sense). Time will tell if things are different this time around. However, I think there's a 50-50 chance that the owners haven't done their homework wrt existing debt, and revenue streams into the club (on a trend basis).

I think you make some valid points. The ownership and running of the club has been a bit dodgy in the past. I feel that we've never had the stability of other clubs in our league and by and large we don't have the same level of history/foundation. I often question why anyone would invest in a club like Livingston. The vast majority of football clubs are are not profitable businesses. Therefore, for someone to take over a football club and invest a lot of their own money, it would take some sort of personal motive. I just don't see, with Livingston being a new club with a relatively small fanbase, there being many people who would care enough to invest money year after year. I don't exclude the idea that someone with a lot of money would want to just blow it on a football club, but it seems unrealistic that anyone would want to for more than a few years unless they really cared.

I think if Livingston can survive for a few more decades then we will prosper and find the stability that we've lacked before. We have a young fanbase at the moment and the town itself is expanding rapidly with more and more first-time buyers and families coming to live here. If we can attract/keep these young supporters then we will have a stronger fanbase and a better prospect of finding investors who support Livingston and care about the club enough to ensure it's long-term stability.

I'm not suggesting here Angelo Massone does not care about Livingston. But as you've rightly said, time will tell.

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You been on the LiviLions boards then, if you have and haven't seen the constant posts at every oppertunity undermining the new owners you must be blind, it's not just about the shit speading about debts either, though that's where it stems from, folk with an agenda shit spreading. Theres 3 sides to every story pal, the clubs side, the shit spreaders side and the truth, nothings black and white, we've at least got to the crux of it all now though after Massone posted, before it was all, i've got a mate that's owed money but can't say anything about it bullshit.

Yes I have been on the boards. No more shit stirring than from when Flynn was in charge, and Keane and Hunter to be honest - you got short memory?

Whats this 'Agenda' you talk about - tell us more what do you mean and what is these people's 'agenda'? Lets get this out on the table.

Its nothing to do with mates. I hope what Massone has posted is correct, but to call some fans fake is below the belt. Whether you like it or not Livi FC cannot affort to chase any supporter away and his phrase is very unfortunate to say the least.

I am just not sure anyone is trying to undermine the Italians.

Edited by Livi

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The agenda is plain for all to see, certain parties have either been burned by the new owners (punted from the website and MDM) or owed money from when Flynn was there, they or their mates have a pop at every story/thread on the forum, eg. not selling MacKay, Sparky and McPake as we'll go bust if we don't etc etc, look how bad we are without McPake and these LIVI FANS want to sell him, all for what's best for the club right enough, the Italians set out their plans before the season kicked off, they've stuck to them, it's not news that they were keeping the best players so when it arose that clubs were in for them and we refused to sell, why the panic about money??

I've no idea if it'll all work out ok or not, but neither has anyone else and that's including the ones who say it wont but they hope they're wrong, i however have had enough of all the gloom that Flynn brought us and am enjoying the season, shoot me for not being a morbid c*nt.

I don't see that as an 'agenda' i see that as ordinary livi fans owed money. If you were owed money then you might take another slant on it so i can understand there fustration, there views on Livi FC. Our chairman has already posted and said hes looking after the big boys (large creditors) and not the small boys - thats now fact on his post in Livi Lions.

I hope it works out cause Saturday afternoons (home & away) is Livi FC for me.

Those waiting on money are entitled to be doom & gloom re Livi that doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe if we sold a player we could pay off all the debts and the Italians could fo after Flynn and recover the money maybe thats why people have voiced there concern.

There is no doubt that Flynn left us in a mess, but the Italians own the club now and need to sort it out.

Livi FC should do the decent thing and sort out all the outstanding debtors even if thats just a payment plan.

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Guest Loopy Lion

Why is it that if it's only a handful of people who seem to have an agenda against Livingston and it's new owners that it's caused such a stir to the extent that the chairman himself has felt the need to come out and publicly decry them and urge them to follow Celtic or Rangers? You'd have thought that if it was all a lot of shite that they could easily be proved wrong and then ignored? You know what they say about not picking at open sores?

LIVIFOREVER - you are ever so funny! I don't think you realise it, but you are. Don't let the b'stards grind you down. :thumsup2

Edited by Loopy Lion

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I don't see that as an 'agenda' i see that as ordinary livi fans owed money. If you were owed money then you might take another slant on it so i can understand there fustration, there views on Livi FC. Our chairman has already posted and said hes looking after the big boys (large creditors) and not the small boys - thats now fact on his post in Livi Lions.

I hope it works out cause Saturday afternoons (home & away) is Livi FC for me.

Those waiting on money are entitled to be doom & gloom re Livi that doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe if we sold a player we could pay off all the debts and the Italians could fo after Flynn and recover the money maybe thats why people have voiced there concern.

There is no doubt that Flynn left us in a mess, but the Italians own the club now and need to sort it out.

Livi FC should do the decent thing and sort out all the outstanding debtors even if thats just a payment plan.

The agenda is the constant puting down of anything good the Italians are doing, i agree it would be good for folk to get paid monies owed but obv it's not as clean cut as that is it, you say would i be happy if it were me owed money, well would you be happy paying someone elses debts, the big bills that are being paid were agreed between Flynn and Massone, it's the others that seems to be in dispute and neither you nor i can say who's in the wrong.

The Italians i'd say have sorted out quite a big mess already, getting the embargo lifted, appointing a new manager and signing players, paying large debts to crediters, hopefully the smaller guys will get squared up but if it's in dispute who's going to be paying them then i fear they'll wait a while yet, still don't see why Flynn gets away scotfree from all the flack being thrown at Massone.

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Guest StevenC
A load of utter brain washed horse shit

You are clearly someone with no sense of how a business is run. You also clearly have no knowledge whatsoever of "cashflow". Would you like a short business management lesson on why cashflow is required for a business to survive?

It does not pleasure me or anyone else in the slightest to have to report my own issues with the people who currently own my club. Is a distraction form the main business of football on the park, which incidentally I have not complained about as much as you would perhaps believe, really what is required to this club? No. Would Mr Massone have been significantly cleverer to pay the "small creditors" and then re-take this money many times over in sponsorship? Yes. Has Angelo shot himself in the foot big style with his post on livilions? you bet ya.

Will the Italians be here next season once Pearse rips them up for arsepaper in court?

Place your bets.

Edited by StevenC

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Guest el bawbag

pearse is a fuckwit scumbag who has time and again proved himself incompetant in legal matters.

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Why is it that if it's only a handful of people who seem to have an agenda against Livingston and it's new owners that it's caused such a stir to the extent that the chairman himself has felt the need to come out and publicly decry them and urge them to follow Celtic or Rangers? You'd have thought that if it was all a lot of shite that they could easily be proved wrong and then ignored? You know what they say about not picking at open sores?

LIVIFOREVER - you are ever so funny! I don't think you realise it, but you are. Don't let the b'stards grind you down. :thumsup2

Glad i amuse you. ;)

Prob cause they've read the same stuff as i have and others who've complained about the doom and gloomers, only the admin pulls your posts and hands out warnings of banning folk for speaking their mind about the shitspreaders, glad folk can air their views on here without fear of censorship. I like a laugh on forums but was getting pissed off reading the same old shite from the same old 4 or 5 posters.

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The agenda is the constant puting down of anything good the Italians are doing, i agree it would be good for folk to get paid monies owed but obv it's not as clean cut as that is it, you say would i be happy if it were me owed money, well would you be happy paying someone elses debts, the big bills that are being paid were agreed between Flynn and Massone, it's the others that seems to be in dispute and neither you nor i can say who's in the wrong.

The Italians i'd say have sorted out quite a big mess already, getting the embargo lifted, appointing a new manager and signing players, paying large debts to crediters, hopefully the smaller guys will get squared up but if it's in dispute who's going to be paying them then i fear they'll wait a while yet, still don't see why Flynn gets away scotfree from all the flack being thrown at Massone.

Eh, I don't see where Massone say's they agreed to pay this debt as part of the deal, but the likelyhood is they are being paid is becuase these are the type of creditors than can easily call for a winding up order. Smaller debtors are unlikely to do that becuse of the amounts.

You seem to miss the point. The onus is on the Italians to go after Flynn only they know what was part of the deal for buying and selling the club. Flynn will get off scot free as long as the Italians allow him to. That should't mean creditors at Livi FC should suffer meantime though.

Money is a very emotional subject for many and i won't decry anyone who has provided a service on the faith they would be paid for that service and are not being paid for whatever reason. Esp in hard times like the credit crunch.

Flynn deserves everything he gets.

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pearse is a fuckwit scumbag who has time and again proved himself incompetant in legal matters.

Exactly, i doubt very much that Flynn would be ripping anyone up legally for arse paper.

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Guest StevenC
a guy owed money from Flynn
...Pearse sold the club for a nominal amount - say £1 - in a zero liability situation...

Besides, I continued to work for the club after June 2nd and funnily enough, I've not been paid for that time either. I don't regard four months as 'a few days'. Do you? I don't regard several hundred pounds as "one or two pounds". Do you?

I'd hope that for those 25 years you showed more attention to detail than this.

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Guest strathbrock
Will the Italians be here next season once Pearse rips them up for arsepaper in court?

Are you still championing Pearse in spite of the money he owed you? :wacko:

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Guest StevenC
Are you still championing Pearse in spite of the money he owed you? :wacko:

See above rocket scientist.

In my circumstance which I understand is not unique, I was paid right up until the new owners took over. Granted, it was three months in arrears, however I was still paid...

Edited by StevenC

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I think you make some valid points. The ownership and running of the club has been a bit dodgy in the past. I feel that we've never had the stability of other clubs in our league and by and large we don't have the same level of history/foundation. I often question why anyone would invest in a club like Livingston. The vast majority of football clubs are are not profitable businesses. Therefore, for someone to take over a football club and invest a lot of their own money, it would take some sort of personal motive. I just don't see, with Livingston being a new club with a relatively small fanbase, there being many people who would care enough to invest money year after year. I don't exclude the idea that someone with a lot of money would want to just blow it on a football club, but it seems unrealistic that anyone would want to for more than a few years unless they really cared.

I think if Livingston can survive for a few more decades then we will prosper and find the stability that we've lacked before. We have a young fanbase at the moment and the town itself is expanding rapidly with more and more first-time buyers and families coming to live here. If we can attract/keep these young supporters then we will have a stronger fanbase and a better prospect of finding investors who support Livingston and care about the club enough to ensure it's long-term stability.

I'm not suggesting here Angelo Massone does not care about Livingston. But as you've rightly said, time will tell.

There is absolutely no doubt that David Hay has been a major influence in the Italians taking over the club. It remains to be seen whether or not his assessment of what LFC were (or were perceived to be) has any resemblence to reality in 2008. I think perception and reality might well be a lot further apart than is comfortable for a few involved individuals.

I understand your hopes of growth for LFC, however I feel it's more in hope than belief. It wasn't so long ago that there was much preening down Almondvale way over claims of 4,000 season ticket holders. What was conveniently omitted from the blurb was that over half were paying next to nothing for the tickets, and the poor old Mr McGuinnes was being creamed for several million over and above additional debt being accrued by the football business. I doubt that LFC will ever grow organically to a point where it will ever meaningfully impact upon Hibs or Hearts or the OF. At th eend of the day, be you East West or Mid Lothian, then Hearts Hibs and the OF will always be the attraction that matters, and LFC will only draw people away when admission is for next to nothing, and/or the club are spending cash they don't have.

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Guest strathbrock
See above rocket scientist.

In my circumstance which I understand is not unique, I was paid right up until the new owners took over. Granted, it was three months in arrears, however I was still paid...

Rocket science is not my forte I'm afraid. From what you have posted on Livilions I was under the impression that you had not been paid since January. If Pearse settled up re your wages then I obviously got that wrong and you are not in the same position as MCL who was owed money from before the Italians came in. Please accept my apologies.

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