Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest]

Stirling Albion's figures are even lower but everyone's behind them (including me). Numbers don't come into the equation here: my club is being shafted hugely by a serial liar and that's all that should count. FOOTBALL fans will understand this.

CDE, that people are behind SA should tell you all you need to know. it is NOT solely about football. Your club has a season ticket for ripping people off, and repeatedly undermining the principles of sport and sportsmanship by seeking competitive advantage through debt avoidance with no footballing penalties attached.

SA on the other hand, are seen as the innocent party in all of this. Right perception or not, Livingston FC have always been seen to be the initiators of the wrongdoing, and both supported and egged on by the mouthier elements of your support. Hence the lack of sympathy and concern in the broader informed footballing community.

We all indulge in revisionist history, but in Livingston's case, the wrongs are still fresh in the mind, and legion in number.

Your club has wronged too many people too many times.

[Homer Thompson]

Stirling Albion's figures are even lower but everyone's behind them (including me). Numbers don't come into the equation here: my club is being shafted hugely by a serial liar and that's all that should count. FOOTBALL fans will understand this.

FOOTBALL fans will also understand how they rose up through the leagues by buying all the best players from their rivals with money, it turned out, they didnt have.

FOOTBALL fans will also understand how they cheated to stay in the SPL

FOOTBALL fans will also remember them going into admin before and coming out pretty much unpenalised.

The phrase "be nice to people on your way up because you'll meet them on your way down" could have been written for Livvy.

I have genuine sympathy for the Livvy fans, but I dont see how any of them can expect the rest of scottish football to come rushing to their aid.

[jimbo]

I have genuine sympathy for the Livvy fans, but I dont see how any of them can expect the rest of scottish football to come rushing to their aid.

I dont think Livi fans either expect or have asked the rest of Scottish football to come to their aid.

[Livi]

It might actually be time to call his bluff. Don't go on Saturday. Everyone should stay away and leave him to it. The power is off. He has utilized the money from Stadium House for purposes other than its intended purpose. Let him do his worst and let the club fold.

Then activate a pressure group to try to retain the league registration as another club. It just might be time to break with the past in a way that brings about radical change for the good.

Or stand outside and protest with Banners "Massone Out" "Massone must go" "Rank not welcome either"

[ObserverFromAfar]

So in other words the club is run by a fantasist and a secret society wants to take it over.

Far better it goes to the wall and a new team starts from scratch with the right people at the helm.

I really do feel very sorry for the Livi fans, but unless you start to publically announce plans to reclaim your club you almost certainly wont have one.

There is commentary within this thread...

http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=16070

Edited July 1, 2009 by ObserverFromAfar

[Guest]

TRUST STATEMENT

Following today's statement from West Lothian Council in relation to Livingston FC and their actions to recover unpaid rent on Almondvale Stadium, the Livi for Life Supporters Trust repeats its call for Angelo Massone to 'do the right thing' and dispose of his controlling interest in the Club.

Given the many months of financial uncertainty, unpaid bills and late and unpaid staff salaries it is clear to us that Mr Massone and his associates cannot deliver a stable and secure Livingston FC going forward.

His continued denials and misleading statements have, we believe, contributed fundamentally to the perilous situation in which Livingston FC now finds itself.

It is our belief that the Club has no future with Mr Massone at the helm, and while we are fearful for the future of the club in the short term, we are fully understanding and supportive of the actions being taken by West Lothian Council.

The Trust has been preparing as best it can to provide a solution should Livingston FC enter interim administration or provisional liquidation.

We have put together what we believe to be a workable Business Plan and have also taken part in detailed discussions with Gordon McDougall, who has expressed a genuine interest in investing in the Club.

Like us, Mr McDougall believes strongly in the principles of a sustainable, community-orientated football club situated in the heart of West Lothian.

Over the next fourteen days and beyond the Trust intends to continue these positive discussions and to correspond with all other relevant parties with a view to keeping senior football alive and kicking in the West Lothian area.

With new ownership - and with the support of its loyal supporters, sponsors and the local community at large - we strongly believe that it is possible for Livingston FC to come through the current difficulties and go on to play a lasting and positive role in professional football under the auspices of the Scottish Football League. ENDS

I would so have loved to have seen the phrase "and honour our existing debts" in there somewhere. The Livingston solution always seems to rely upon not paying their way. My personal opinion is that they need to do this or get the hell out of the SFL. If pro football is indeed the priority, then pay the sodding bills. Do that, and no-one can argue.

[Guest]

Or stand outside and protest with Banners "Massone Out" "Massone must go" "Rank not welcome either"

......and doubtless hold them upside down as this is the "Italian way". That'll show him you mean business.

[Soccer Dark Blue]

I'd say that's not what we should do. In my mind, it's a choice of two things.

1) Go to the meeting and simply slaughter Massone, telling him where tae get to in no uncertain terms.

2) Protest outside the meeting, showing our disdain for the man is enough to keep us out of a room from him.

My personal preference is the second option.

Good ideas, you have to show them that the Livi fans have a voice and are not going to take any cr**p from the board, because that's what they have been shovelling you in the form of broken promises and warped dilusions. Personally I would back the above, show them and hopefully get them out!

Good luck and I sincerely mean that.

[Numbers]

Quote.. We have put together what we believe to be a workable Business Plan and have also taken part in detailed discussions with Gordon McDougall, who has expressed a genuine interest in investing in the Club.

Like us, Mr McDougall believes strongly in the principles of a sustainable, community-orientated football club situated in the heart of West Lothian.

..Unquote

Community-orientated football club. The usual speel from those wanting to gain control. That very wording is a doubler from the start. Club means "An association for common cause" That can only apply if all details are readily available to anyone from the community who wishes to be part of the club and to contribute to its future.

Duncan Freemason is correct. Pay your bills, wipe the slate clean and take it from there.

[Klaus Nomi]

Stirling Albion's figures are even lower but everyone's behind them (including me). Numbers don't come into the equation here: my club is being shafted hugely by a serial liar and that's all that should count. FOOTBALL fans will understand this.

I totally agree, as a Ton Fan I have gone through the same problems as Livi are going through. My point is that Morton & Stirling fans have turned out in numbers and tried to support thier teams when needed (fans games, auctions etc.) and maybe I'm wrong, but I have not seen the same actions from Livi fans? I can assure you that I am a FOOTBALL fan and I never want to see any club going under, but I just think that there is a feeling of "oh well its all done now" from Livi fans & this has something to do with thier relatively small crowds and the short time they have been based in Livingston. From my personal experience, Stirling fans have done everything within their powers to help thier club (buying Pie ovens, setting up Trusts etc), but I am not 100% Livi have enough people that care enough to carry out these types of things?

[thruthenight]

As CDE says, everyone has Stirlings back (Also including me) despite their fan base. There are a lot of people out there who support the Livi fans in our mission to somehow keep a football club, but there also seem to be a lot of people who would love to see us driven into the ground.

You know the people, the one's who have 'franchise' copied and pasted into everything slightly relevant to Livi around. But they seem to miss the point that it will be the fans who suffer here. Simply because we're a new club doesn't mean we care any less as fans.

I also definately agree with the protest outside the meeting on Saturday. Anything we can do must be done, however slim the chances are.

I'm even going to buy a lottery ticket just for the occasion

[MCL]

As CDE says, everyone has Stirlings back (Also including me) despite their fan base. There are a lot of people out there who support the Livi fans in our mission to somehow keep a football club, but there also seem to be a lot of people who would love to see us driven into the ground.

You know the people, the one's who have 'franchise' copied and pasted into everything slightly relevant to Livi around. But they seem to miss the point that it will be the fans who suffer here. Simply because we're a new club doesn't mean we care any less as fans.

I also definately agree with the protest outside the meeting on Saturday. Anything we can do must be done, however slim the chances are.

I'm even going to buy a lottery ticket just for the occasion

Maybe you should attend the meeting and keep that money instead of buying the lottery ticket.

I've heard that Massone plans to offer shares to those at the meeting. If the "Trust" are serious about helping the club then maybe they should be there with their big wedge to buy out Massone ?

Maybe they'll have more than 2 pound coins on them this time :lol:

[Charles Darwin Esq]

Right perception or not, Livingston FC have always been seen to be the initiators of the wrongdoing, and both supported and egged on by the mouthier elements of your support. Hence the lack of sympathy and concern in the broader informed footballing community.

We all indulge in revisionist history, but in Livingston's case, the wrongs are still fresh in the mind, and legion in number.

Your club has wronged too many people too many times.

I would directly challenge this by stating there are far mouthier element in other supports saying a lot worse things, only difference being they lack the meteoric rise to success Livi enjoyed, albeit at a hefty price now. It was a real scunner to see these new upstarts lifting trophies after a few years when their own clubs cabinets were filled with little more than dust and memories.

Envy breeds bitterness, and bitterness lasts a very long time.

Still, I've been heartened by messages of support received from across the tribal lines. And if Falkirk ever faced the same fate I'd be willing the Bairns on all the way. I'm not a big fan of the taste of bitterness you see, and I respect the passion each fan has for his or her team of choice.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Charles Darwin Esq

[jimbo]

I've heard that Massone plans to offer shares to those at the meeting.

He's discussed this with you has he?

[RICH DEE BISCUIT]

Stirling Albion's figures are even lower but everyone's behind them (including me). Numbers don't come into the equation here: my club is being shafted hugely by a serial liar and that's all that should count. FOOTBALL fans will understand this.

When Dundee went into admin, everyone rallied around to help the club from bucket collections,to bottled water to concerts and many other events were organised , but just as important it helped give the support hope for the clubs survival seeing the efforts and inspiration by the organisers of various groups. I may be wrong ,but i get the impression that there is a division with fans groups and the trust at livi, i feel boycotting any meetings however stong feelings are wont move things forward, people have to stand up and be counted these are tough days ahead ,we,ve been there , its no fun .

[ObserverFromAfar]

Rankine is speaking in the Scotsman from the innest Sanctum of Almondvale.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/sport/Mass...--to.5421510.jp

Rankine appears to be seeing opportunities, but is hedging the exposure and downside by ensuring this is shared across more people. Oh, and the money is needed in less than 13 days. MCL's has been hearing correctly.

Seems a disagreement on approach - he considers Massone should have minority interest, but Massone says he should maintain his controlling interest (I thought it was a company acting for a consortium that held the majority shareholding?? Maybe I misunderstand the position, and the other people in the consortium have thrown the towel in..... wonder if Rankine has spoken to them too?)

Rankine identifies that other "investors" needed - with big pockets and plenty of spare cash apparently.

Interesting case study... if my reasing of the situation is correct, this could lead to a few big "personalities" on the board - no doubt leading to interesting, loud and robust debates and potential disagreements.

Good to see the "Books" are being seen by Rankine. No doubt they are upto date, accurate and would pass all necessary tests.

An extract from the Report:

Rankine has already rejected Massone's offer of a 49 per cent shareholding but has instead advised the Livingston owner to rebuild his bridges with the community in an attempt to raise much-need finance.

A 'Save Our Club' meeting has been arranged by Massone and Rankine for Saturday, inviting supporters groups and former Cowdenbeath chairman Gordon McDougall, who has also expressed an interest in a takeover, to meet to discuss ways of resolving the club's financial plight.

However, Rankine, reckons Massone, much derided by supporters for his supervision of the club which has seen them rack up unmanageable arrears, should become a minority shareholder to appease fans who have lost all patience with him.

Speaking last night from Almondvale, Rankine said: "Angelo needs to hold a public meeting with the fans and with anyone who could put money into the club.

"Angelo has already offered me a 49 per cent stake in the club but I have said no. I have also told him he needs to take a minority shareholding and get other people involved in the club because he has something like 13 days to pay the council debt.

"Angelo has said the club is not available but he will seek a Scottish partner. I would have preferred a consortium to come in and take over but Angelo seems likes he wants to hang on, but I've told him I would think it's best if he takes a minority shareholding and we get other people involved."

Rankine, who is also aware of the £32,000 due to Scottish Power over an unpaid electricity bill, admits he will take time to consider whether to invest in Livingston. He said: "We need everyone to put their cards on the table and see if there is anyone to save it but I'm prepared to chip in. If I think I can't sort out the club's debts, I will walk away.

"At the moment it's not an attractive proposition for me but if there is a chance it can be, I'm going to have a look at it."

[Soccer Dark Blue]

When Dundee went into admin, everyone rallied around to help the club from bucket collections,to bottled water to concerts and many other events were organised , but just as important it helped give the support hope for the clubs survival seeing the efforts and inspiration by the organisers of various groups. I may be wrong ,but i get the impression that there is a division with fans groups and the trust at livi, i feel boycotting any meetings however stong feelings are wont move things forward, people have to stand up and be counted these are tough days ahead ,we,ve been there , its no fun .

Yes that is true. But with Dundee we did have cooperation with the board to a large extent. Relations between the Livi fans and the Livi board are far from cordial. That's where we had the advantage to push on with our efforts to save our club, but for Livingston it will be difficult and I just hope that they can pull through it.

[Guest]

I would directly challenge this by stating there are far mouthier element in other supports saying a lot worse things, only difference being they lack the meteoric rise to success Livi enjoyed, albeit at a hefty price now. It was a real scunner to see these new upstarts lifting trophies after a few years when their own clubs cabinets were filled with little more than dust and memories.

Envy breeds bitterness, and bitterness lasts a very long time.

Still, I've been heartened by messages of support received from across the tribal lines. And if Falkirk ever faced the same fate I'd be willing the Bairns on all the way. I'm not a big fan of the taste of bitterness you see, and I respect the passion each fan has for his or her team of choice.

Whoa there cowboy. Envy breeds bitterness? Maybe so, but that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the Livingston situation. Go way way back and the supporters of other clubs made it absolutely clear that what was going on at Almondvale was not sustainable, and had to be done on the back of massive debt build up, and that sooner or later, it had to go pear shaped (and it did). Envy had absolutely nothing to do with it. Bitterness is an absolutely OK feeling to have for a club that in every sense, cheated its way to the top flight, then jettisoned its responsibilities by means of administration but got to keep the trappings of their dishonesty.

As for the "upstarts lifting trophies" rubbish, you know as well as I do how it was done. By out and out financial mismanagement on a grand scale over a short time period. The League Cup win you obviously allude to was done while in administration, and was won by a squad of players that were outwith your ability to pay. Everyone around at the time knows it, so spare us the spin. You know the truth as well as I do.

Paying a hefty price now? If so, then there will be some justice in that, because you certainly didn't pay it in 2004.

Honestly CDE, if you want to have a debate, please spare me the Livvy revisionist view of what actually happened. livingston are serial offenders when it comes to financial wrongdoing. The Keane years were not an example of "ambition". They were an example of bloody awful and in some instances, pre-meditated financial wrongdoing. The only victims were the creditors. You guys were happy to get back on the gravy train the minute you sensed it moving. The Kachloul affair amply demonstrated that Livingston were prepared to get down and dirty ethically as well as financially.

So here you are. A rhetorical question for you. Was I ever envious of what I knew was happening at Almondvale? Not for one second. Not even a flicker.

You will know that Falkirk too have been in administration. You will also know that we paid back every single penny of what we owed. I can be a wee bit proud of having played a part in that. Tell me when you know what that feels like, because I can thoroughly recommend it. A key part of it was facing up to the reality of it, and doing something about it. Something you might wish to consider. Believe me, it's far more character building than faux Victorian role play, or basking in a past glory that wasn't glorious at all. It was lying until there was no room to lie any more. That must sound helluva familiar.

Move on CDE. You are still living the lie, and if there are more like you who live in the self affirming little world where it is everyone else who is wrong, then you paint a wonderfully clear picture that reminds everyone of what exactly it was (and is) about Livingston that has made them so widely reviled. You come across as the ghost of Livi past.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Guest

[EdinburghLivi]

[RICH DEE BISCUIT]

Yes that is true. But with Dundee we did have cooperation with the board to a large extent. Relations between the Livi fans and the Livi board are far from cordial. That's where we had the advantage to push on with our efforts to save our club, but for Livingston it will be difficult and I just hope that they can pull through it.

Desperate times for them indeed,totally agree about our board,although if we had handed all the money to the administrator as requested, it would have disappeared into a black hole ,instead we were able to donate sums towards various things,point is, money was distributed wisely. Livi don't have that option, nevertheless they have to get talking although it might be too late for them.