bluedragon

To add to SFHA’s post….. In the 19th century and early 20th century “junior” was a generic term to describe the wide range of adult local football played beneath the national leagues and cups throughout the British Isles and not just in Scotland. Over time the term fell out of use in England and elsewhere and in Northern Ireland I believe it became the colloquial name used for amateur football. In Scotland the term stuck due to it becoming a formal term describing a specific grade of the game with the naming of the Scottish Junior Football Association. However, the name “Scottish Junior Football Association” was not the first choice of title but the only one that used the word "junior" for the new association in 1880. The SJFA name was eventually agreed with the Scottish Football Association that thought it clearly differentiated the two associations and which was superior. After the early demise of the first SJFA local Junior Football Associations started to spring up all over the country and the creation of the second SJFA in 1886 was instigated by these associations wanting an umbrella association. So back to the original question! I would say clubs that were established before either version of the SJFA was formed can describe themselves as “junior” clubs from their establishment.

Two more! “#10 W Mahon Airdrie” is Willie Mahon who was playing at left back for Whifflet Rob Roy at the time of this match. He played for Scottish Sea Cadets against their English counterparts and immediately afterwards was part of the Great Britain side that went on a tour of the Netherlands. In the 1946-47 season Whifflet Rob Roy played 45 games (winning 37, drawing 6 & losing 2) winning four trophies including the Scottish Amateur Cup (Junior Section) when on 7 June 1947 they defeated Dundee Ashdale in the final. Willie Mahon was invited for trials with Queen’s Park but he was back playing for Whifflet Rob Roy at the start of the 1947-48 season. He appears to have moved to Drumpelier, that played in the same league, later in that season. I lost track of him after that. “#3 L Muir Glasgow” is Leslie Muir who joined Kirkintilloch Rob Roy from Mearns Amateurs in October 1949 after a successful trial game. During the season he still played representative matches for the ATC. He was retained for the 1950-51 season but released at the end. In the following season he was playing for Dunoon Athletic. For the 1952-53 season he joined Neilston but was freed in December 1952. I can find nothing after that.

The Newtongrange player came from Kirkliston and had been demobbed from National Service at the start of the 1949-50 season when he started playing (and scoring!) regularly.

1946 – “#9 R Kinghorn West Lothian” is Robert Kinghorn from 1756 Squadron (3rd West Lothian) ATC. He could possibly be the Robert Kinghorn who played for Newtongrange for seven seasons (1948-49 to 1954-55). Both were goal scorers.

Eastern Athletic was formed in February 1879 and ran until 1886. They played at Carntyne Park (1879-1885) and then moved to Dalmarnock Park (1885-86). Their last season in the Scottish Cup was 1884-1885. It is possible that their absence from the Scottish Cup in 1885-86 could be related to the change in their home ground. Clubs needed an enclosed ground and perhaps Dalmarnock Park did not meet requirements. They certainly played on after they ceased entering the Scottish Cup and the latest I found was when they played Southern Athletic at Dalmarnock Park on 17 April 1886. There was a short-lived Eastern Athletic (1875-76) but nothing to say one way or another if the two clubs were linked. I tried to find both Eastern Athletic and Cambridge playing on the same day but couldn’t. The nearest I found was: 31 October 1885 Eastern Athletic played Lenzie 3 October 1885 Cambridge lost 0-6 to St Andrews (Glasgow) in the Second Round of the Scottish Cup. It is possible that Cambridge was formed to solely to play in the Scottish Cup in the 1885-86 season and simply disbanded after they were eliminated.

Here is another similar match. Portsmouth and Clyde won the FA and Scottish Cups respectively in the 1938-39 season. A friendly between the two cup holders had been planned for the following season but the outbreak of War meant it was 16 October 1946 before the clubs met at Portsmouth with the home side winning 3-1. The reciprocal match in Glasgow could not be arranged until 5 October 1949 when Portsmouth won again, this time it was 3-0.

Thank you for the information. I have had another look at this. I have also found that they were cousins. I think that the Willie Westwater who played for Morton was born in 1925 and the Willie Westwater in the Kilsyth Rangers tribute was born around 1933. I am therefore sure you are correct that Alan's father only played as a Junior and I have mistakenly given some of the other Willie Westwater's football career to him. I will now try and sort this out.

I can only make an opening bid for the English non-league record using the records of the Birmingham & District League (today the West Midlands (Regional) League) that at its height was one of the strongest leagues below the Football League. It did, however, include reserve or "A" teams of local Football League clubs. Wolverhampton Wanderers "A" scored 158 goals in 46 league matches in the 1953-54 season. However, the record by a non-league club was the 153 goals from 34 games by Worcester City in the 1929-30 season. Nothing approaching Bo'ness Athletic's achievement this season.

I checked on Brian McColl's terrific league records and they confirm Raith Rovers holding the Scottish League record and for other leagues the highest is Jeanfield Swifts with 172 goals. Here are the details: Scottish League 1937-38 Raith Rovers Pld 34 W 27 D 5 L 2 GF 142 GA 54 Pts 59 Perthshire Junior League 1948-49 Jeanfield Swifts Pld 34 W 27 D 3 L 4 GF 172 GA 57 Pts 57 The English League record could be held by Peterborough United with 134 goals while in Division 4: 1960-61 Peterborough United Pld 46 W 28 D 10 L 8 GF 134 GA 65 Pts 66

Two more high scoring Junior footballers: ALEX HAIR The history of Strathclyde FC written in 1936 says that in the 1922-23 season Alex Hair scored 96 goals as they completed the Glasgow Junior Football League double, winning the league title and the league cup together with a local charity cup. Strathclyde also competed in the North-Eastern Cup, Glasgow Cup, Easter Junior Cup, Glasgow Charity Cup and the Glasgow Junior Consolation Cup. A dispute between the Scottish Junior Football Associations and the Glasgow Junior League meant Glasgow clubs could not enter the Scottish Junior Cup or West of Scotland Cup competitions. BOBBY CARROLL Bobby Carroll’s 75 goal haul in the 1958-59 season for Irvine Meadow may appear modest by the records set by Willie Gray, Alex Hair, Davie Cook and Tommy Duffy. However, Bobby was an outside right and not a centre forward. His performance that season earned him the Empire News Junior Player of the Year award. In paying tribute in the Daily Record following his death his friend and former Celtic team mate, Bertie Auld said: “he wasn't an out-and-out winger, though. He could be a bit of a goal-poacher as well and he wanted to be involved in everything.” Postscript The history of Largs Thistle says that in the 1957-58 season Davie Cook scored 7 further goals in pre-season games and 2 in an abandoned match.

That is some achievement! The record I am aware of was set by Tommy Duffy (Ardeer Thistle) who scored 97 goals in the 1959/60 Season. His record was shown in the Guinness Book of Records and from memory it was described as a record for “junior professional football” – lower case “j”. I am aware of two others who scored over 80 goals in Ayrshire Junior football: Davie Cook (Largs Thistle) 87 goals in 52 competitive matches in the 1957/58 Season Willie Gray (Kilwinning Rangers) 83 goals in one season in the 1920’s.

I have confused things. Sorry! POWBURN Going back to your map. The railway crosses east to west the road running south that becomes “Savile Ter.” I believe the football ground stood on the land between “Mentone Terr” and the building described as “Female Blind Asylum”. The railway was opened in 1884 and would have dug out the cutting from the land on which the ground stood when Hearts played Hibs there on 28 April 1878. MAYFIELD PARK, NEWINGTON The other ground was described as Mayfield Park, Newington. I think that is in the area marked on your map as “East Craigmillar Park”. Today I think it might be the land on the right off what is today East Suffolk Road and where it meets Crawfurd Road. I may have confused things further! Please let me know what you think and what you find out.

Yes, that is it. In the centre of the map “Mayfield Str” becomes “Craigmillar Park” after the road crosses the railway line. I believe the football ground was to the east of that road and between what is shown on the map as “Ventnor Terr.” and “Crawfurd Road”.

I think the ground described as Mayfield was on the west side of Newington Cemetery, i.e. the opposite side to Echo Bank. It was on the east side of Mayfield Road where the road now crosses the railway line. The land on which the ground stood was taken for the construction of the South Suburban Railway.

Morton will be up there as they have played at Cappielow since 1879.

Here are some more matches played by Scotland against club opposition taken from the RSSSF website. 21 March 1891 v Corinthian (played in Glasgow) Won 9- 2 - Corinthian had travelled to Glasgow to play Queen’s Park, however, it was decided to give the Scotland team to play England on 4 April 1891 a warm-up game and so some players from other clubs donned Queen’s Park colours. 29 June 1927 v Hakoah Wein (Winnipeg) Won 4- 1 - The Scotland touring party were scheduled to meet Select (All-Star) teams from cities and areas around Canada. The Austrian club were also touring and a game was arranged. Although there were often teams styled as “Scotland XI” that played in benefit and testimonial matches the following matches involved an SFA organised Scotland XI: 30 April 1953 v Sunderland (Glasgow) Won 5- 0 - Jimmy Mason testimonial match. 11 November 1964 v Tottenham Hotspur (London) Won 6- 2 - John White testimonial match. 2 May 1966 v Leicester City (Leicester) Drew 1- 1 - Alex Dowdells testimonial match. 27 January 1971 v Rangers/Celtic Select (Glasgow) Won 2- 1 - Ibrox disaster benefit match. 16 April 1978 v Rangers (Glasgow) Lost 0- 5 - John Greig testimonial match.

I have had a look at the Evening Times and together with what is posted here I believe Kenny Dalglish’s first game for Cumbernauld United was against Glasgow Perthshire on Saturday 12 August 1967 when he scored at least one goal in a 3-0 win. Cumbernauld United played Yoker Athletic on Monday 14 August 1967 and this ties in with what Garrellburn wrote: “he did score four goals in his second match for the club, a 5-1 win over Yoker, No date given for this game.” Here is what I found as Cumbernauld’s opening matches that season: The Evening Times (29 July 1967) gives Cumbernauld United’s opening three League matches as follows: Monday 31 July 1967 v Dunipace (A) – the Evening Times (1 August 1967) has a good write-up on the match (it says Cumbernauld won 6-2) and the players but does not mention Kenny Dalglish. Wednesday 2 August 1967 v Pollok (H) – no result or report. Saturday 5 August 1967 v Bellshill (A) Cumbernauld won 6-2. There is a match report in Evening Times but Kenny Dalglish is not in the Cumbernauld line-up. After that the matches I found were: Saturday 12 August 1967 v Glasgow Perthshire (H) – “Dalgleish” is listed in the Cumbernauld team. He scored the second Cumbernauld goal in a 3-0 win. The scorer of the third goal is not given. Monday 14 August 1967 v Yoker Athletic (A) – no match report or result. Saturday 19 August 1967 v Blantyre Celtic (H) –Cumbernauld won 3-0 but there is no match report. Saturday 26 August 1967 v Benburb (H) Cumbernauld won 4-3 Kenny Dalglish scores one goal.

This is now becoming confusing with so many Westwaters and many played at full back! The William Westwater you have listed playing for Morton is the father of Alan Westwater, the Australian International. However, the references to him playing for the two Dundee clubs is, I believe, another Willie Westwater. Here is what I think(!) are the careers of the two Willie Westwater full backs. William Westwater (Alan’s father) – I have two dates of birth (circa. 1921 & 5 June 1925) and I do not which is which. He died on 9 March 2007 in Australia. He joined Morton in March 1943 from Dunipace Thistle. During the Second World War he played occasionally for Dundee with Morton’s consent. He was released by Morton in April 1953 and was reinstated as a Junior and joined Kilsyth Rangers. He won a Junior Cup winners’ medal with the club in 1955. He was not capped by Junior Scotland. He then emigrated to Australia and first played for Canterbury in 1956-57 and then moved on to Bankstown for the following season. William Westwater – As above I am not sure of his date of birth. I believe he died on 18 July 1985. I believe he played a trial match in 1942 for Dundee United. He played for Dunipace and won three Junior International caps in the 1951-52 season. He was on Dundee’s books in 1952-53 but did not play any first team games. He signed for Dundee United in August 1953. He played 10 matches before being released in January 1954 and emigrating to Canada. If anyone can help please do!

George “Geordie” Westwater (Dunipace) won three international caps at right back in 1924 and then also played for Junior Scotland against the Glasgow Junior League in 1927. It was reported that he was the youngest of 19 children. George had three sons who also played at right back. They were Willie (Kilsyth Rangers), James (Benburb) and George (Denistoun Waverley). Willie played five times for Junior Scotland, three International matches and two other games. I believe that Alan Westwater who was capped by Australia in the 1960’s, including matches against Scotland, is Willie’s son. Going further back, and assuming that there may be a connection, in 1908 John Westwater (Dunipace) captained Junior Scotland against the Aberdeenshire Junior Football Association

You can draw a direct comparison with how the SPFL champion club qualifies for the UEFA Champions League each season alongside the champions from other European leagues. UEFA has exactly the same issue, i.e. how to rank clubs that are league champion clubs playing in different countries with leagues of different strengths. A Scottish club needs to: 1) Win the SPFL championship (read SoSL) 2) Hold a UEFA Club Licence (read SFA) In Europe what happens next is dependent on the performance of all Scottish clubs in Europe as measured by the UEFA Association Coefficient for the Scottish Football Association. The Coefficient will determine at what stage the Scottish champions will enter the Champions League. Could this be simply adapted for the Scottish Pyramid and be used to decide the promotion route to the Lowland League? It does not have to be a complicated calculation but along the lines of the post by Stanley, e.g. a simple league table of the matches between the three Lowland League (LL) feeder leagues in the Scottish Cup and South Challenge Cup. I think it also needs to reflect other non-playing standards of the three leagues and therefore the calculation should include an element to reflect the number of clubs in each league that hold an SFA Club Licence. I think this latter part would be important to gain SFA support. HOW COULD IT WORK? I have attached a fictitious example to show how it could work. AUTOMATIC PROMOTION/PLAY-OFF PLACE The champion from the highest rated league, subject to holding an SFA Club Licence, would get an automatic promotion place to the Lowland League while the two other league champions have to play-off against each other and then the winner plays the club in second-last place in the LL. LL clubs will still be faced with one automatic relegation place. However, there would now be an additional play-off relegation place. LL promotion and relegation numbers vary according to promotion/relegation to/from the SPFL. If an SPFL gets relegated to the LL but the LL champions do not go up to the SPFL the LL has 17 clubs the second-last club is relegated to bring the number back to 16. The club in that unfortunate position could enter the play-off competition to get a second chance. If the opposite happens and the LL has 15 clubs there would be no need for the second-last club to enter the play-offs and the 16th place would be taken by the winner of the play-offs between the two feeder leagues. It is not a major change but does open up another promotion place for the three feeder leagues but also gives LL clubs hovering near the bottom of the table a fairer chance of survival if they find themselves in second-last place. Going back to the original discussion, does this give the SoSL clubs an unfair advantage for promotion to the LL? I do not think so. The issue is as much about geography as playing ability but I think that this filter would bring the best clubs to the top for LL promotion but retain the SoSL providing football both within Dumfries & Galloway and the Pyramid. HIGHLAND LEAGUE The problem is how to replicate this for clubs in leagues in the North that feed into the Highland League. The North Challenge Cup went into abeyance in 2009 and with few potential matches in the Scottish Cup it would not be feasible to use the system suggested for the LL. So the current play-off system would need to continue and is consistent with the proposed system in the south, i.e. an automatic promotion place would only be given to a feeder league that could prove through competition it was better than the other two. However, this could be unfair for a league that could in the future have a significant proportion of clubs holding an SFA Club Licence but not the inter-league matches to replicate the proposed system in the south. So let’s assume that say 75% of Midland League clubs hold a licence then I think the league deserves an automatic promotion place to the Highland League.

Here are some thoughts to add to the discussion. DO NOTHING Dumfries & Galloway is the third largest local authority by area in Scotland. It does not easily fit into the current areas covered by the West of Scotland League (WoSL) or the East of Scotland League (EoSL) and if the South of Scotland League (SoSL) that covers the area was assimilated into either it would significantly increase travelling distances for clubs. A club in Dumfries & Galloway should still have a direct route to Tier 5 and an ambitious club should not have to move leagues to achieve its ambitions. It is possible that some clubs relegated from the Lowland League (LL) could choose to be relegated to the SoSL as they perceive it will give them an easier route back. Based on current information, the SoSL will only have 3 clubs out of 12 that could qualify for the Lower Pyramid Play-Offs next season. If one of those three clubs were SoSL champions then the play-off results will decide if they are promoted, i.e. the strongest team will come through and so why worry about the relative strengths of the three LL feeder leagues? With the WoSL Premier Division clubs rapidly gaining SFA Club Licences it will not be long before it will be at the same level as the EoSL Premier Division and give the two leagues an extremely strong argument for an automatic promotion for the champion of each league. The SoSL position would inevitably be part of that discussion. So why rush to do something about the SoSL situation when there willl be more important issues ahead? CHANGE THE TIER The SoSL could drop down to Tier 8, i.e. below the top two divisions of the WoSL and EoSL. The WoSL could regionalise its divisions currently at Tiers 8 & 9 into North and East divisions at Tier 8. The SoSL would sit alongside them at Tier 8 with the champions playing off against the two WoSL Tier 8 champions for promotion to WoSL Division 1 at Tier 7. There would need to be flexibility for WoSL clubs currently at Tiers 8 & 9 in South Ayrshire/ Dumfries & Galloway to allow them to choose to play in either the WoSL or SoSL to see what suits them. The SOSL champions would need to give up its LL play-off spot as it would not be fair to be seen to “leap frog” WoSL clubs at Tiers 6 & 7. BECOME PART OF THE WEST OF SCOTLAND LEAGUE The SoSL clubs could form a Tier 8 South Division sitting alongside North and East Divisions in the WoSL. There would be one less place in the Lower Pyramid Play-Offs. There is a risk at this early stage in the Pyramid’s evolution that if we think in terms of strict north/south and east/west boundaries things will be missed. We have seen the flexible, amicable solutions that have needed to be found between the LL & Highland League feeder leagues where clubs are close to the strictly defined LL/Highland League dividing line. If the LL feeder leagues divide into east and west then football in the south of Scotland (Dumfries & Galloway and the Borders) risks getting forgotten. Maybe in the future there is a case for these clubs to play each other in a league/division and so the SoSL must remain to keep options open at this time.

It was no problem and I am pleased to hear of the family link to the medal. I can see that the photograph looks as if he is wearing a goalkeeper's jersey. However, in all my sources he is listed as a left half. I did check to see if there was a last-minute emergency at the match in Belfast that saw him take over in goals but there was not and he played the whole game in his usual position.

Thanks for posting those great photographs. Burnbank Athletic defeated Maryhill, the holders, to win the Scottish Junior Cup in the 1900-01 season. They also won the Lanarkshire Junior League championship in the same season. Thanks to the great research of Stewart Davidson here are the details of their cup run. In the regionalised First Round they had a 5-2 away win against Nethanvale Thistle in the Lanarkshire section. In the 2nd and 3rd Rounds they were in the Glasgow & Lanarkshire section. They were awarded a bye in the 2nd Round and defeated Haywood Wanderers 7-0 at home in the 3rd Round. The 4th Round was drawn on a national basis and Burnbank received a home tie against Irvine Meadow XI who they defeated 6-2. In the 5th Round it was the turn of Leith Ivanhoe to visit and the result was a 5-2 victory. In the 6th Round it was another home tie and a convincing 9-0 win against Auchenheath Thistle. The Semi-Final was played at Shawfield on 6 April 1901 and a 5-1 win against Parkhead Athletic saw them into the Final. The Final against Maryhill was played at the Exhibition Grounds in Glasgow on 11 May. This was the temporary ground built at Gilmorehill for the Glasgow International Exhibition in 1901. Burnbank Athletic defeated Maryhill 2-0 in front of a crowd of 7,000 and top referee Tom Robertson officiated. It was 0-0 at half-time but Burnbank scored through Wallace early in the second half. Sharp scored a penalty in the 65th minute. Dan Greenhorn, along with Rogers, Scholes and Clarkson, were, by all accounts, the pick of the Burnbank players. In the Maryhill side was Don Colman, a future Scottish international, who is credited with inventing the dug-out. Rachel Corsie, who captains the Scottish team is his great granddaughter. Also in the Maryhill team was Dawson Walker who I think with such a distinctive name may be the father of the Dawson Walker who was trainer to the Scotland team and briefly manager. Burnbank Swifts had won the Cup in 1888-89 & 1889-90 and although it is difficult to be certain it appears that Burnbank Athletic emerged from that club so this was the third victory for the community beating the record of Ashfield who had won the Junior Cup twice. Charlie Greenhorn had played in the 1889-90 Final. William “Nipper” Greenhorn played for Bellshill Athletic in 1917. Both were Junior Internationalists and may be related to Dan Greenhorn. In the photograph Dan Greenhorn is wearing a cap and a badge on his jersey. I think the photograph may have been taken when he represented the Lanarkshire Junior League in their annual fixture against the Irish Junior League at Solitude, Belfast on 9 November 1901. Lanarkshire drew 1-1 and there were 8 Burnbank Athletic players in the team. He also played in a Junior Scotland trial match on 8 February 1902 at Fir Park, Motherwell, but was not selected for that season’s international matches. I hope that this helps.

Here is a little more on the club's history. Baillieston were preceded by Baillieston Thistle (1892 – 1911). They were formed in 1919 and entered the Scottish Junior League for the 1921-22 season. They moved to the Glasgow Junior League for the next season but moved back in the 1923-24 season. From the records available they won their division title four times and the overall Scottish Junior League championship on three occasions. After the Second World War they joined the Central League and won the championship in 1959-60. They won the Junior Cup in 1979-80 and were losing finalists in 1923-24, 1964-65, 1981-82 & 1983-84. They previously played at grounds named Rhineside, Maxwell Park and Springhill before moving to Station Park. The record attendance was 9,500 for a 6th Round Junior Cup tie against Armadale Thistle in the 1953-54 season. The club had 13 players who were capped for Junior Scotland while at the club: David Booth (1 cap in 1969) George Clark (1 - 1985) Jim Donaldson (1 - 1983) Tommy Elliott (1 - 1987) Jackie Goodall (1- 1982) John Hunt (2 – 1980) Ronnie Lowrie (5 – 1982 & 1983) Joe McGowan (1 – 1955) Jim Murdoch (2 – 1973 & 1974) Jim Ross (1 - 1982) Jimmy Sievewright (2- 1954) William Stewart (1 -1935) Jim Tennant (1 - 1958)

Thank you for posting the photographs of the excellent display of Junior caps and the story behind each one. For his time Stanley (we understand that he was known by his middle name) Henderson had a long Junior Scotland career stretching over 5 seasons before he signed for Raith Rovers. He won one more cap (1928 v England) and was travelling reserve against England in 1930. Performances in previous seasons counted for little and each season he would have had to earn a place through a series of trial matches involving the next batch of up-and-coming centre halves. Unfortunately for Stanley he was seriously injured early in the 1926 match against England. With the consent of the England officials, George Gardiner (Blantyre Celtic) replaced him. Newtongrange Star players have won 47 Junior International caps making the club 17th equal in the all-time list of clubs. In the East only Linlithgow Rose (86), Bo’ness United (74), Bonnyrigg Rose (62) are ahead of them while Camelon are equal on 47. Here are the other 16 Star players who were capped: David Anderson (1920), John Coughlin (1989 & 1990), Bobby Forrest (1992 & 1993), Gordon Fraser (1990 & 1991), Damien Gielty (2010), Freddie Glidden (1948), Steve Hancock (1971), Jim Hastie (1971), Andrew Higgins (1957), John Hislop (1978 & 1980), Dave Mackay (1953), John McPherson (1930), Bobby Prentice (1972), Willie Pryde (1951), Paul Ramsay (1988) and James Young (1949).