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About bluedragon

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  1. Various club name issues

    Many thanks for all the contributions, suggestions, etc. I have now re-worked the list taking a much wider view of clubs named after their locations following your feedback. Here it is. Clubs simply named, originally at least, after their location be it a city, town, village, area, church, bar, geographical feature, i.e. named after its location and without a suffix - (45) Clubs named without any reference at all it to its original or current location - (2) They are Hermes and Royal Albert Athletic. Clubs with a city, town, village or area and then a suffix - (84). That suffix may be a second, local geographical reference, e.g. North End. They are: United (15) Thistle (12) Juniors (11) Victoria (6) Athletic (4) Rovers (4) Rangers (3) Albert (1) Albion (1) Bon Accord (1) Boswell Thistle (1) Burgh (1) Burntonians (1) Glencairn (1) Harp (1) Hearts (1) Hibs (1) Ladeside (1) Meadow XI (1) North End (1) Panmure (1) Parkvale (1) Perthshire (1) Rob Roy (1) Roselea (1) Royal (1) St Ninian (1) St Ternan (1) Star Hearts (1) Talbot (1) University (1) Violet (1) Wanderers (1) Welfare (1) West End (1) YMCA (1)
  2. Various club name issues

    Yes you are right of course but I discounted them as they are not names AFAIK of areas of Banff or Keith respectively. A bit pedantic I know!
  3. Various club name issues

    With apologies in advance for any howlers you spot in my geography here are the nine with no town/city/area link: Benburb Colony Park Deveronside Hermes Islavale Rossvale St Anthony's St Roch's Vale of Clyde Here are other 33 clubs with a town/city/area name: Arthurlie Ashfield Blairgowrie Clydebank Cruden Bay Culter Downfield Dufftown East End Gartcairn Girvan Glenrothes Glentanar Kinnoull Lesmahagow Longside Luncarty Maryhill Maud Muirkirk Petershill Pollok Port Glasgow Renfrew Rosyth Stonehaven Stoneyburn Sunnybank Tayport Troon Vale of Leven Whitburn Whitehills Any corrections will be gratefully received.
  4. Various club name issues

    There are 131 Junior clubs and 89 have a suffix Of these: 14 are Uniteds 12 are Thistles (including Lugar Boswell Thistle) 11 are Juniors (where the plural is an integral part of the club name and not just as in Junior Football Club (JFC) and/or may be known locally as “XXXXXX Juniors”. 6 are Victorias 5 are Athletics 4 are Rovers (Ardrossan Winton Rovers, Buckie Rovers, Carluke Rovers and Kello Rovers) 3 are Rangers The remaining 55 clubs each have a unique suffix. Add to that 9 clubs that have a name that does not include a town/city/area Add to that 33 clubs that have a name of a town/city/area and no suffix NOTE: the allocation of these 42 clubs between the two categories may need to be adjusted as there are one or two that are difficult to work out.
  5. Various club name issues

    IRVINE MEADOW XI As Cmontheloknow has posted the story has been told before but it is always worth telling again! So to add to Meadow XI's post here it is! The name Irvine Meadow XI dates back to a naming convention of the 1890’s. Junior club Irvine Celtic played at Meadow Park. A juvenile club had been formed in the town and they were looking for a better ground. With many of the team living near Meadow Park they approached Irvine Celtic who were agreeable to the proposal. Although the new affiliation between the clubs was loose and the two clubs were for all intents and purposes separate clubs, the Juvenile club was named using the convention of the day. This convention was that the club playing at a lower grade was named as follows: [Host club] [Ground] XI i.e. Irvine Celtic Meadow XI. Other clubs using this convention were Rangers Ibrox XI, Hibernian Easter XI, Queen’s Park Hampden XI, Clyde Barrowfield XI, Third Lanark Cathkin XI and Kilmarnock Rugby XI. The Juvenile club played its first match in September 1895. When Irvine Celtic folded in December 1895 the Juvenile side were allowed by the landlord to play on at Meadow Park. With their host club’s demise the club dropped the “Celtic” from its name. It probably should have dropped the “XI” at the same time but did not. After a good first season they became the tenant at Meadow Park. The new Irvine Meadow XI quickly moved from Juvenile for Junior football. EAST CRAIGIE / DOWNFIELD In the SJFA Handbook the clubs are given as Downfield and Dundee East Craigie but as far as I am aware it should be Downfield and East Craigie. EAST END The SJFA Handbook says “Aberdeen East End”. However, the club name is “East End”. I wonder if “Aberdeen” was unofficially added and adopted by the SJFA in the past to distinguish it from other clubs with the same name. e,g, Forfar East End, and has remained even though it is the only “East End” today? NEWMAINS UNITED The SJFA Handbook says “Newmains United Community FC”. The club badge says “Newmains United CFC”. I suppose the main thing to establish is how clubs are registered for football purposes. Some clubs are registered as companies or charities and will have a longer registered name than they use for football purposes .e.g. Ardrossan Winton Rovers Football Club Limited and Bathgate Thistle Community Football Club, etc. From what I can see in Newmains case “Community” is not an integral part of the club’s football name but simply used in the suffix “CFC”. That’s just a guess though. KIRKCALDY YM The SJFA Handbook says “Kirkcaldy YMCA”. KIRRIEMUIR THISTLE The SJFA Handbook says “Kirriemuir Thistle”. That one has always confused me. Which one is correct? THORNTON HIBS The SJFA Handbook says “Thornton Hibs” and I can remember being told that it is definitely Hibs and is not Hibernian. JUNIOR SUFFIX Some clubs are described as Junior Football Club in their full name and the JFC is dropped in reporting. This is the equivalent of say Sunderland who use the suffix Association Football Club (AFC) but are known simply as Sunderland. However, others use Juniors (i.e. plural) as an integral part of their club name, e.g. Camelon Juniors, Cumnock Juniors, Darvel Juniors. Many clubs probably used the Juniors suffix in the early days to differentiate it from a Senior club from the same town, e.g. Beith, and the name just stuck. Other clubs, e.g. Dyce who are fairly recent club formed from an amalagamation, have made a deliberate decision to have “Juniors” as part of the club name. NEILSTON JUNIORS The SJFA Handbook says “Neilston Juniors”. VICTORIAS & ALBERTS Some time ago I looked at clubs with the suffix Victoria or Albert. From what I found very few were named directly in honour of the Queen or the Prince Consort but adopted the name indirectly through an association with a local park or bar or in one case a ship named after them. Lochgelly Albert is the exception with the club’s suffix being the name of the French town where many local men died in the First World War.
  6. Ash pitches in Scotland

    Edinburgh Emmet played at Bathgate Park that was a cinder pitch. The ground was just off the Canongate part of the Royal Mile. In the late 19th Century the site was a gas works that closed in around 1900 and lay derelict for a short time before the buildings were demolished in 1918. As an open space simply known as the Old Gas Works it was utilised for all sorts of events. It appears to have become a football ground when Edinburgh Emmet were given a tenancy for the site by Edinburgh Corporation at a rent of £10 pa to allow the club to establish a football ground on the site when they joined the Junior ranks in 1918. It took its name from Baillie Bathgate who was a senior councillor on the Edinburgh Corporation who represented the Canongate Ward and did a lot to help develop recreational activities for residents. The ground was little more than a cinder pitch with a perimeter fence. It was soon heavily used for other matches, e.g. juvenile, local cup finals, etc. Edinburgh Emmet enjoyed some success and this was no doubt in part due to their central location and being able to attract attendances of around 2,000. Attendances at the ground were some times as high as 7,000. However, there was continual pressure to utilise the empty central location and Bathgate Park was short-lived. The Edinburgh Corporation sold a 3.49 acre site that included Bathgate Park to the Scottish Motor Traction Company for £17,500. The last report of football being played there is in August 1926. The Corporation found Emmet another temporary ground on land they were building on in the south of the city. Emmet officials, while pleased they had a ground, were concerned with being decanted so far from the centre of the city. The temporary ground was very soon taken up for housing and the club moved to Meadowbank. The club ceased to exist in 1930. The match "Blackie Gold" recalls might be when Auchinleck Talbot played Edinburgh Emmet at Bathgate Park on 5 January 1924 in the 5th Round of the Junior Cup and won 2:1. Appropriately Ashfield's Saracen Park was an ash pitch at one time. I had always thought the ash pitch was a Scottish phenomenon however when Dalkeith Thistle toured Norway in 1954 they played Voss Sports on an ash pitch.
  7. Here is another list! This shows Junior players who were capped at: 1) Junior level and then went on to be capped at full international level [J/S followed by the Senior clubs played for when winning full caps] 2) both Junior and Amateur level when playing for a Junior club. [J/A] 3) Amateur level when playing for a Junior club. [A] The players are grouped under their Junior club. Jock Brown appears twice. He won Junior caps whilst at Glenburn Rovers and Shawfield. As ever, if anyone spots an error, has different information or has a question do please just let me know. Parkhead (4) George Key J/S (Heart of Midlothian) Tommy Low J/S (Rangers) James Raeside J/S (Third Lanark) Andrew Richmond J/S (Queen's Park) Arthurlie (3) John Anderson J/S (Leicester City) Andy Weir J/S (Motherwell) Johnny Kelly J/S (Barnsley) Ashfield (3) Stevie Chalmers J/S (Celtic) - "Lisbon Lion" Johnnie Crum J/S (Celtic) Alistair McMillan J/A Irvine Meadow XI (3) Ian Prentice J/A - played for Amateur Scotland and Junior Scotland in games less than 24 hours apart. Alan Johnstone J/A - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition Bobby Murray A Maryhill (3) Donald Colman J/S (Aberdeen) Willie Lennie J/S (Aberdeen) Charles Pringle J/S (St Mirren) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition St Anthony's (3) John Gilchrist J/S (Rangers) Tommy McInally J/S (Celtic) Jimmy Dunn J/S (Hibernian and Everton) - "Wembley Wizard" Blantyre Celtic (2) Jimmy Johnstone J/S (Celtic) - "Lisbon Lion" Paul Wilson J/S (Celtic) Bo’ness United (2) Alex Scott J/S (Rangers & Everton) Jim Scott J/S (Hibernian) Glasgow Perthshire (2) Jimmy Connor J/S (Sunderland) James Lawrence J/S (Newcastle United) Kilsyth Rangers (2) Drew Jarvie J/S (Airdrieonians) George Mulhall J/S (Aberdeen and Sunderland) Mugiemoss (2) Dougie Gray J/S (Rangers) Benny Yorston J/S (Aberdeen) Shawfield (2) Jock Brown J/S (Clyde) - Father of Scottish Rugby Union Internationals Peter (“PC”) Brown and Gordon (“Broon frae Troon”) Brown. Bobby Dougan J/S (Heart of Midlothian) Benburb (1) Victor Matassa A Blantyre Victoria (1) Jimmy Brownlie J/S (Third Lanark) Bridgeton Waverley (1) Pat Quinn J/S (Motherwell) Burnbank Swifts (1) Bob Foyers J/S (St Bernards) Cambuslang Rangers (1) Kenny Campbell J/S (Liverpool and Partick Thistle) Carnoustie Panmure (1) Jimmy Easson J/S (Portsmouth) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition Cumbernauld United (1) Kenny Dalglish J/S Celtic and Liverpool) - Junior Scotland matches against non-international opposition. European Cup winner with Liverpool. Cumnock (1) William Ritchie A Dalry Primrose (1) Bobby Walker J/S (Heart of Midlothian) Darvel (1) Nicol Smith J/S (Rangers) Douglas Water Thistle (1) Peter Nellies J/S (Heart of Midlothian) - Captained Scotland at Full International level. Dundee North End (1) Gordon Smith J/S (Hibernian) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition and a member of the "Famous Five". Dundee Violet (1) Scot Symon J/S (Rangers) - played cricket for Scotland as well. Duntocher Hibernian (2) Pat Crerand J/S (Celtic and Manchester United) - European Cup winner with Manchester United. Alan McFarlane A East Kilbride Thistle (1) Willie Pettigrew J/S (Motherwell) Falkirk Juniors (1) James Croal J/S (Falkirk) Glenafton Athletic (1) William Paton A Glenbuck Athletic (1) Willie Muir J/S (Dundee) Glenburn Rovers (1) Jock Brown J/S (Clyde) - Father of Scottish Rugby Union Internationals Peter (“PC”) Brown and Gordon (“Broon frae Troon”) Brown. Greenock (1) Jimmy Stewart A Greenock Volunteers (1) Harry Rennie J/S (Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian) Johnstone Burgh (1) Billy McDerment A Kilmarnock Rugby XI (1) Bobby Templeton J/S (Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Woolwich Arsenal and Kilmarnock) Kilwinning Rangers (1) Robert Beattie J/S (Preston North End) Lanark United (1) Tommy Barr A Longriggend Wanderers (1) Hugh Morgan J/S (St Mirren and Liverpool) Minerva (1) David Stewart J/S (Queen's Park) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition Neilston (1) Dixie Deans J/S (Celtic) Newmilns (1) Andrew Cunningham J/S (Rangers) - Captained Scotland at Full International level. Newtongrange Star (1) Dave Mackay J/S (Heart of Midlothian and Tottenham Hotspur) Port Glasgow Athletic Juniors (1) Matt Armstrong J/S (Aberdeen) Renfrew Victoria (1) Jimmy Gordon J/S (Rangers) Royal Albert (1) Bobby Hogg J/S (Celtic) Rutherglen Glencairn (1) Alexander Bennett J/S (Celtic and Rangers) - His grandson is Sandy Carmichael, Scotland rugby international and British Lion. Shotts Bon Accord (1) Brian Martin J/S (Motherwell) South Western (1) Jack Fyfe J/S (Third Lanark) St Roch's (1) Jim Brogan J/S (Celtic) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition. Thorniewood United (1) Eddie O’Neil A Tranent (1) Lindsay Finlayson A Troon (1) Gordon Armstrong A Vale of Clyde (1) James Hamilton J/S (St Mirren) Wallyford Bluebell (1) Danny Liddle J/S (East Fife) Yoker Athletic (1) Ian Wallace J/S (Coventry City)
  8. That is very sad news. Dougie Friedman won his first cap for Junior Scotland at the end of the 1977/78 season against Wales and then became a fixture in the side for the next three years playing in four consecutive seasons. He played in eleven consecutive matches against international opposition. He played in at least one match against non-international opposition making a total of 12 matches. He was appointed captain for his second international against the Republic of Ireland and went on to captain the team in at least seven matches. Details of captains are sketchy but on the records we have Dougie captained Junior Scotland more than any other player. His international matches were: England 1980, 1981 Northern Ireland 1978, 1980 Republic of Ireland 1978, 1979, 1980 Wales 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981
  9. Here is what we currently believe to be the full list of players who have won Junior and Full caps for Scotland. The following list shows next to the players' name the Junior and Senior clubs where they were playing at the time and is in alphabetical order of Junior club. The Junior caps are those won playing against teams representing England, Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland. At the bottom of the list is a second list of full caps who only represented the SJFA against non-international opposition. As ever, if anyone spots an error, has different information or has a question do please just let me know. John Anderson (Arthurlie - Leicester City) Andy Weir (Arthurlie - Motherwell) Johnny Kelly (Arthurlie - Barnsley) Stevie Chalmers (Ashfield - Celtic) Johnnie Crum (Ashfield - Celtic) Jimmy Johnstone (Blantyre Celtic - Celtic) Paul Wilson (Blantyre Celtic - Celtic) Jimmy Brownlie (Blantyre Victoria - Third Lanark) Alex Scott (Bo'ness United - Rangers & Everton) Jim Scott (Bo'ness United - Hibernian) Pat Quinn (Bridgeton Waverley - Motherwell) Bob Foyers (Burnbank Swifts - St Bernards) Kenny Campbell (Cambuslang Rangers - Liverpool and Partick Thistle) Bobby Walker (Dalry Primrose - Heart of Midlothian) Nicol Smith (Darvel - Rangers) Peter Nellies (Douglas Water Thistle - Heart of Midlothian) Scot Symon (Dundee Violet - Rangers) Pat Crerand (Duntocher Hibernian - Celtic and Manchester United) Willie Pettigrew (East Kilbride Thistle - Motherwell) James Croal (Falkirk Juniors - Falkirk) Jimmy Connor (Glasgow Perthshire - Sunderland) James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire - Newcastle United) Willie/Gooley Muir (Glenbuck Athletic - Dundee) Jock Brown (Glenburn Rovers & Shawfield - Clyde) Harry Rennie (Greenock Volunteers - Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian) Bobby Templeton (Kilmarnock Rugby XI - Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Woolwich Arsenal and Kilmarnock) Drew Jarvie (Kilsyth Rangers - Airdrieonians) George Mulhall (Kilsyth Rangers - Aberdeen and Sunderland) Robert Beattie (Kilwinning Rangers - Preston North End) Hugh Morgan (Longriggend Wanderers - St Mirren and Liverpool.) Donald Colman (Maryhill - Aberdeen) Willie Lennie (Maryhill - Aberdeen) Dougie Gray (Mugiemoss - Rangers) Benny Yorston (Mugiemoss - Aberdeen) Dixie Deans (Neilston - Celtic) Andrew Cunningham (Newmilns - Rangers) Dave Mackay (Newtongrange Star - Heart of Midlothian and Tottenham Hotspur) George Key (Parkhead - Heart of Midlothian) Tommy Low (Parkhead - Rangers) James Raeside (Parkhead - Third Lanark) Andrew Richmond (Parkhead - Queen's Park) Matt Armstrong (Port Glasgow Athletic Juniors - Aberdeen) Jimmy Gordon (Renfrew Victoria - Rangers) Bobby Hogg (Royal Albert - Celtic) Alexander Bennett (Rutherglen Glencairn - Celtic and Rangers) Bobby Dougan (Shawfield - Heart of Midlothian) Brian Martin (Shotts Bon Accord - Motherwell) Jack Fyfe (South Western - Third Lanark) John Gilchrist (St Anthony's - Rangers) Tommy McInally (St Anthony's - Celtic) Jimmy Dunn (St Anthony's - Hibernian and Everton) James Hamilton (Vale of Clyde - St Mirren) Danny Liddle (Wallyford Bluebell - East Fife) Ian Wallace (Yoker Athletic - Coventry City) SJFA matches played against non-international opposition Jimmy Easson (Carnoustie Panmure - Portsmouth) Kenny Dalglish (Cumbernauld United - Celtic and Liverpool) Gordon Smith (Dundee North End - Hibernian) Charles Pringle (Maryhill - St Mirren) David Stewart (Minerva - Queen's Park) Jim Brogan (St Roch's - Celtic)
  10. Thanks Sandgrownun that confirms the team in both photographs. First photograph – squad for 2005 Quadrangular Tournament Second photograph – team that played the Isle of Man in the 2008 Quadrangular Tournament. Thank you.
  11. Thanks Sandgrownun. The positive ID of Bryan Dingwall is a great help. First photograph - 1st Row Left-hand column After your suggestion I agree the background looks very much like the covered enclosure at the old Petershill Park. Bryan played at Petershill Park for Junior Scotland on three occasions (twice in 2005 and once in 2007). As I understand it the old Petershill Park closed in 2005. Taking those great clues together I now believe the photograph is of the squad for the 2005 Quadrangular Tournament. There are 19 people in the photograph. 18 of those look to be wearing match shirts and I have 18 players listed in the squad. Stevie Agnew (Glenafton Athletic) Joe Carruth (Glenafton Athletic) Bryan Dingwall (Maryhill) Robert Downs (Arthurlie) Andy Essler (Maryhill) Gavin Friels (Pollok) Raymond Logan (Pollok) Martin McGarvey (Arthurlie) Martin McLaughlan (Pollok) Stevie Miller (Maryhill) Roberto Morris (Tayport) Scott Peters (Tayport) Iain Ross (Lochee United) Zander Ryan (Arthurlie) Danny Smith (Linlithgow Rose) John Ward (Tayport) Gary Wilson (Arthurlie) Ian Wilson (Pollok) Second photograph - 10th Row Right-hand column Bryan Dingwall played three times against the Isle of Man. If I am correct with the first photograph this one is not from 2005. The other games were 2008 in the Isle of Man and 2010 in Northern Ireland. I am wondering if the player third from the left who is partly obscured is Joe Mbu (Whitburn) who only played once against the Isle of Man in 2008. However, there are two issues. First, the background looks like a very built-up area with flats while these two games were played at more rural settings. Secondly, the Morrison SFA sponsorship deal ended in 2006 so are the two players wearing SFA “hand-me-downs” ? Here is squad for that game. Richie Barr (Cumnock) Tom Courts (Kelty Hearts) Bryan Dingwall (Pollok) Stephen Docherty (Bathgate Thistle) Kris Doolan (Auchinleck Talbot) Robert Downs (Pollok) Roger Duffin (Hill of Beath Hawthorn) Marc Graham (Hill of Beath Hawthorn) Callum Hardie (Lochee United) Gordon Herd (Linlithgow Rose) Paul Hilland (Irvine Meadow XI) Stuart MacDonald (Cumnock) Joe Mbu (Whitburn) Brian McKeown (Pollok) Gary Middleton (Lochee United) Iain Ross (Lochee United) Mark Tyrell (Linlithgow Rose) Gary Wilson (Pollok) Can anyone make any more positive IDs ? Thank you.
  12. Our next stage is to try and find as many team photographs as we can. Our plan is simply to include a note or a link in the record of where to find a photograph. So, for example, in the line-ups included in the Centenary book we will add a note to say “The Juniors 100 Years. A Centenary History of Scottish Junior Football”. I have been looking through the gallery of photographs on the SJFA website. http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/sjfa/football_image_libraries.cfm?page=1830 Most of them have details of the year/match in the title but two don’t. Can anyone help please? 1st Row Left-hand column – This has the title “SJFAInternational”. Can anyone help with identifying a few players and/or the background as I should be able to find the match details with that help. 10th Row Right-hand column – This has the title “Isle of Man_320”. With one of the players wearing a SFA top with a Morrison logo and the high rise flats in the background my guess is that this is the match versus the Isle of Man at Petershill Park on 30 April 2005. Again, can anyone confirm or provide some players’ names. Thank you.
  13. First of all thank you for all the help in filling in gaps in the records of Scottish Junior Football Association XI matches and players. As a result of this help and our further work here is a link to the second and updated version of the records. The first version was issued on 7 January 2018. http://www.scottish-football-historical-archive.co.nf/scotlandjuniorinternationals.xlsx We have been able to add a further 16 matches to make a total of 368. We believe we have found all the international matches played against the other countries in the British Isles but there are probably other games, e.g. friendlies, benefits, etc. still to be found. We have 2,088 players listed and we are only missing 116 forenames. However, we have some missing line-ups with 408 players’ names missing. In this update, alongside the additional matches, we have also included more forenames of players, details of captains, trainers and managers and, where we can find it, notes of substitutes who were used. We would appreciate any more help that you can give. Some of the gaps are from fairly recent matches and so someone might have an old programme or teamsheet hidden away somewhere that might help. On the other hand, someone might have played in one of the matches! If anyone spots any errors or has contradictory information on a match or a player do please let us know so that we can investigate it.
  14. Old Petershill pic

    A great photograph indeed. The ground also hosted a visit by Arsenal in 1969. The Gunners played a Junior Scotland XI but as they were also on a scouting mission they asked the SJFA to only select players not provisionally signed by a Senior club. I have heard two different scores - both in Arsenal’s favour – 5:2 & 5:3 – I am fairly sure it was 5:2 but can anyone confirm please? Also if anyone has an attendance (actual or estimated) that would be great to hear. The Arsenal team included several players who went on to feature in their double-winning season of 1970/71 (Pat Rice, Sammy Nelson, Eddie Kelly, Charlie George and Ray Kennedy).
  15. Problem solved! A friend has found that “Jaap” is actually the John L Japp who also played against Northern Ireland in 1961 before going on to have a season at Third Lanark (1961/62) and Hamilton Academical (1962/63). For those interested we hope to make another, updated version of the database available soon. We are doing some last checks at present. For those who have helped so far there are still gaps that need to be filled! As always, we would also be very interested if anyone spots any errors or has additional information. We have 2,070 players named but are still looking for some line-ups and goalscorers in the 363 matches we have listed.