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Dunning1874 last won the day on October 12

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About Dunning1874

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  1. Gordon Strachan

    Having had a look at old squads for a post on the McLeish/Vogts debate in another thread, I wanted to revisit these points as well. I've only looked at competitive games for the purpose of removing Warren Cummings types who only played against Hong Kong and the like, so it gives a fair reflection of what Vogts was doing when he was trying to pick our best team rather than trying things out in friendlies when he may have been more interested in blooding players than the results. These are the players who featured across Vogts' 13 competitive games in charge, with the number of competitive caps they won under him also listed and those who had been capped already under Brown in bold. Gary Naysmith - 12 Barry Ferguson - 11 Stevie Crawford - 10 Jackie McNamara - 10 Rab Douglas - 9 Kenny Miller - 9 Christian Dailly - 8 Stephen Pressley - 8 Steven Thompson - 7 James McFadden - 7 Lee Wilkie - 6 Paul Lambert - 6 Colin Cameron - 6 Darren Fletcher - 6 Paul Dickov - 6 Maurice Ross - 5 Andy Webster - 5 Gavin Rae - 5 Graham Alexander - 4 Paul Devlin - 4 Neil McCann - 4 Don Hutchison - 4 Craig Gordon - 3 Gary Caldwell - 3 Gary Holt - 3 Russell Anderson - 2 Stephen Pearson - 2 Paul Gallacher - 1 Stephen Crainey - 1 Callum Davidson - 1 David Weir - 1 Malkkky Mackkkay - 1 Steven Caldwell - 1 Ian Murray - 1 Scott Severin - 1 Nigel Quashie - 1 Richard Hughes - 1 Allan Johnston - 1 Andy Gray - 1 Lee McCulloch - 1 Scott Dobie - 1 Kevin Kyle - 1 He used 42 players across those 13 games, giving 23 of them their debuts. Yes, that's a lot of debuts to give and there's no question that Brown left an ageing squad behind, but he used 19 players who had already been capped. Admittedly many of them had less than 10 caps, but there were 19 players available to him who already had some degree of international experience: that's not such a gigantic rebuild as you'd think he had on his hands with the way people go on about the work Brown left him to do. The point craigkillie made about how many changes were made for that Faroes game is one often used in defence of Vogts and to criticise Brown, to show how many changes Vogts was forced to make due to the terrible hand Brown dealt him. Look at the starting XI that day: Douglas Ross - Weir - Dailly - Crainey Dickov - Lambert - Ferguson - Johnston Kyle - Dobie It was IIRC supposed to interchange with a 4-3-3 with Dickov or Johnston pushing up when we were in possession, but it was a bit too much of a shambles to really tell. Jackie McNamara, Callum Davidson and Gary Naysmith all had international caps before Vogts took over, all were available for that game and all of them were better full backs than the two who Vogts chose to start. Vogts wasn't forced into picking Crainey or Ross due to Craig Brown's negligence: he chose to throw untested, inferior players in over superior alternatives because he was a bad manager. Neil McCann was a natural winger who'd had 13 caps under Brown, playing regularly and also scoring in the previous campaign so we had an experienced option on the wing available to Vogts in general, but he was unfortunately injured for that game. Not to worry, James McFadden was getting rave reviews and had established himself in the Motherwell first team, having scored double figures the season before. Vogts chose to leave him out of the squad while he put a centre forward on the wing. Vogts wasn't forced into putting Paul Dickov on the wing, he chose to play him out of position when he had real wingers available because he was a bad manager. Kevin Kyle had at that point played 26 first team games in his career, scoring twice, both goals coming in a loan spell for fourth tier Darlington. Vogts had Stevie Crawford, Stevie Thompson and Kenny Miller available. Crawford was well proven in the Scottish top flight, Thompson had established himself in the Dundee Utd team and started that season well, eventually getting a move to Rangers that January, while Miller had already impressed at Hibs, got a move to Rangers then moved down to Wolves. Crawford and Miller both had international caps already, but he chose to use Kevin Kyle instead. He was not forced to use Kevin Kyle due to Craig Brown leaving him no options: he chose to use Kevin Kyle because he was a bad manager. Berit Vogts wasn't forced into that starting eleven. He didn't have to give Kyle and Dobie their competitive debuts for a lack of alternatives, he didn't have to play Dickov on the wing, he certainly didn't have to put Crainey and Ross into the team. He chose to because he was a bad manager. The list of players who won the most competitive caps under Vogts in the end is telling - the top eight had all won caps under Brown first. Admittedly in some cases that was just one cap under Brown, but these players had been around the international set-up already. Vogts could have gone with that core to the team from the start, but rather than being forced to blood players with no experience whatsoever from the start, he chose to do it differently. He had the option to pick McNamara and Naysmith straight away, but instead he chose to piss about with Maurice Ross and Stephen Crainey. He could have gone with Thompson, Crawford or Miller right away, but instead he chose to fling Kevin Kyle into the team. He had Neil McCann available but he chose to put centre forwards on the wing, with Gareth Williams as his only midfielder on the bench while Colin Cameron wasn't included in squads. The fact he later saw the error of his ways and had McCann and Cameron in the starting XI again is just further evidence that Vogts had it badly wrong at the start rather than being left with nothing by Brown; the players Brown had given caps to were the best available. No one disputes that Craig Brown should have given more opportunities to young players. He should have had an eye on the future when our centre forwards were 32yo Billy Dodds and 30yo Don Hutchison. Tom Boyd and Matt Elliott were obviously coming to the end of their international careers and he should have had some idea of what defenders could step up to take theit places. However, the idea that this makes Craig Brown responsible for the garbage results of Berti Vogts just doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. Vogts still had the core of a squad there to work with and while he was forced to blood some youngsters, nobody forced him to pick shite ones. He corrected his errors of picking Kyle and Dobie, but persisted with Stevie Crawford over Kenny Miller. He continued to dick about with Paul Devlin while Shaun Maloney established himself in the Celtic team. He picked Maurice Ross more often than he picked Graham Alexander. Steven Caldwell. None of those decisions can be blamed on Craig Brown.
  2. World Cup 2018 Qualifying

    Trust Ireland to get the easiest tie possible. Still fancy them to lose though.
  3. Bigger Change Than Just The Manager?

    I decided to look more closely at the claim that McLeish was handed a batch of good players due to Berti Vogts blooding them, and the obvious implication from D.A.F.C that he only achieved good results because he was in the right place at the right time to benefit from Vogts giving players experience in the first place a few years earlier. McLeish was Scotland manager for 10 games, including two friendlies. The number of caps players won under him is as follows, with the manager who gave them their debuts in brackets: Craig Gordon - 10 (Vogts) Stephen McManus - 10 (Smith) David Weir - 9 (Brown) Barry Ferguson - 8 (Brown) Kris Boyd - 8 (Smith) Scott Brown - 7 (Smith) Lee McCulloch - 7 (Vogts) Shaun Maloney - 7 (Smith) Darren Fletcher - 7 (Vogts) Graham Alexander - 6 (Vogts) Alan Hutton - 6 (McLeish) Gary Naysmith - 6 (Brown) Paul Hartley - 6 (Smith) Kenny Miller - 6 (Brown) James McFadden - 6 (Vogts) Garry O'Connor - 6 (Vogts) Gary Teale - 5 (Smith) Craig Beattie - 5 (Smith) Stephen Pearson - 4 (Vogts) Gary Caldwell - 2 (Vogts) Jay McEveley - 2 (McLeish) Christian Dailly - 2 (Brown) Charlie Adam - 2 (McLeish) Allan McGregor - 1 (McLeish) Graeme Murty - 1 (Vogts) Russell Anderson - 1 (Vogts) Barry Robson - 1 (McLeish) Steven Naismith - 1 (McLeish) So 28 players were capped by Alex McLeish. 10 were given their debuts by Berti Vogts, 7 by Walter Smith, 6 by McLeish and 5 by Craig Brown. Okay, more players did get their first cap under Vogts than any other manager, but it's hardly a wild discrepancy. If you were seriously going to argue that Vogts deserves the credit for that campaign as it was achieved with his squad, you'd expect more than half of them to have came from him, but that's not the case. Considering that McLeish had his year in charge three years after Vogts' two year spell ended, you'd expect several players to have been given their first caps by Vogts - it simply makes sense that players around the 25-28 age bracket in 2007 would have been getting their first caps from 2002-04. If you examine it by number of appearances to differentiate the importance of players rather than giving equal weight to players with 10 caps and players with 1 (Craig Gordon appeared in every minute of every competitive game whereas Allan McGregor got 45 minutes in a friendly so obviously that's not comparing like for like) it works out as Vogts - 50; Smith - 48; Brown - 31; McLeish - 11. There's a difference of two appearances between players given debuts by Vogts and Smith - Vogts was barely more responsible for blooding the spine of that team than Smith was. McManus, Brown, Hartley, Maloney and Boyd came from Smith, Weir, Ferguson, Miller and Naysmith came from Brown, Hutton from McLeish. What's more, when the discussion of Brown's failure to prepare for a transition and Vogts being landed with a bad situation as a result was had on the Strachan thread the other day, there was widespread agreement that you couldn't give Brown credit for giving players like Kenny Miller, Scott Severin, Gavin Rae and Stevie Crawford who went on to feature more frequently under Vogts their first caps, because they hadn't featured enough and were still inexperienced when Vogts was forced to rely on them. It was also argued that the fact Brown had picked other players like Barry Nicholson, Gary Holt and Dougie Freedman who were still available to Vogts also shouldn't count in his favour because they weren't good enough to continue getting caps anyway. Those are both entirely reasonable arguments which I broadly agree with, but if you're going to hold them against Brown to defend Vogts, you have to judge Vogts by the same standard and look at the players he gave debuts to who were still featuring under Smith and McLeish. Lee McCulloch only got one cap under Vogts, and that was coming on as a sub in the 85th minute. Craig Gordon and Gary Caldwell each had four caps when Vogts left, Russell Anderson had five, Stephen Pearson had two, Garry O'Connor and Graeme Murty also had just one. If you're holding Vogts to that same standard as we hold Brown to for bringing players through, then really the only players you can truly credit him for bringing through are Darren Fletcher (13 caps) and James McFadden (18 caps), as they were the only players he handed over with a decent amount of experience who were also good enough to keep their place in the squad. Bringing those two through is obviously a good thing, but at the same time it's hardly like he was plucking unknown youngsters from nowhere in a masterstroke no one saw coming: he'd have been getting howls of derision if he failed to pick McFadden or Fletcher regularly with the former tearing the SPL apart and the latter establishing himself as a first team regular at Manchester United. Of course, you can reasonably argue that Vogts does deserve the credit for the likes of Gordon and Caldwell too, but if you do that then criticise Craig Brown for not passing enough young players over you're having your cake and eating it. The reality is that like every other argument in defence of Berti Vogts, the claim that McLeish's results were down to players Vogts brought through collapses under the slightest bit of scrutiny.
  4. Bigger Change Than Just The Manager?

    McLeish is done as a manager and no one in their right mind should want him now, but overall our squad is better now than it was then. You really are desperate to give the credit for anything positive to Berti Vogts.
  5. Bigger Change Than Just The Manager?

    Is Shaun Maloney Malaysian?
  6. The Metalhead thread

    Bloodstock is looking ridiculous for next year already. Having finally got Judas Priest after years of trying along with Gojira and Nightwish providing one of their strongest sets of headliners ever, they've got Emperor to sub-headline under Priest as well, doing Anthems in full. Getting Emperor in a non-headline slot is fucking mental.
  7. No matter how bad a thread is, it can always get worse.
  8. Favourite gaming cheat/secret

    Eventually he would give up for bookings, but unfortunately if it was a red you had to be caught eventually. On a similar theme, on FIFA 95 you could walk your goalkeeper out to stand directly in front of the spot when the opposition had a penalty.
  9. Scotland's Next Permanent Manager.

    If Malkkky Mackkkay gets the job when Cesare Prandelli is interested there should be riots in the streets. It'd be choosing Levein ahead of Lagerback all over again.
  10. Bigger Change Than Just The Manager?

    Regardless of who the new manager is, I think we can all agree that there should be a clause in the contract making it clear that picking Charlie Adam is a sackable offence.
  11. That's a fair comment. We did enough to get the win so fine, job done, but let's not kid ourselves that that was anywhere close to a good performance. We were totally devoid of any kind of attacking gameplan and we screwed a goal out of a second ball and a bit of shite goalkeeping; game won and the three points is what matters but that kind of performance won't get us points against anyone else in the division. 4-3-3 and the idea of Jai Quitongo on the left need to go in the sea. It's not working and it's never going to start working.
  12. Scottish Cup 2017/18

    Technical issue
  13. Scottish Cup 2017/18

    Hahahahaha their simultaneous look off camera two seconds after saying Brora again
  14. Bladerunner 2049

    I'm just in from seeing it. It's certainly a film that I'll need to rewatch a few times to fully appreciate, but while I wouldn't quite put it on a par with the original it's undoubtedly excellent. I can see where people are coming from with the slow pacing as a criticism and it could possibly have had 15/20 minutes trimmed off, but that's a personal taste thing and I don't agree myself: reflecting on it, if you did speed the pace up it could ruin the whole feel of it. It does the original justice.
  15. Scotland v Netherlands squad/lineup

    They'll have a pretty good excuse for it with the bigot taking the team.