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The Millenator, on Oct 17 2008, 17:27, said:

I bet you Cliff Thorburn's never had a nine-darter though

He's built like him...

Oh and I'll bet Phil Taylor's never hit a 147

This post has been edited by Exuberant: 17 October 2008 - 16:42

[Hebridean]

Skyline Drifter, on Oct 17 2008, 17:30, said:

You cannot be wrong, something you can't seem to comprehend on this issue. It's a matter of subjective unprovable opinion.

Quite incorrect. Factually, one is more skillful than the other. One side of this argument is wrong and the other side is right.

Skyline Drifter, on Oct 17 2008, 17:30, said:

I think the 9 darter is much more difficult to achieve

See, this is where you are going wrong. The question is not about which is more difficult. it is about which requires more skill. Both challenges would be considerably more difficult if the players were required to wear an eyepatch over one eye. This would not increase the level of skill required, only the level of difficulty. I have little doubt that a 9 dart finish is more difficult.

[Steve McQueen]

Hebridean, on Oct 17 2008, 17:00, said:

Erm, when the question is which on is more skillful, I think you can!

There's much much more margin for error in a 147 though, you can hit a poor shot or get a bad kick but still be able to continue the break.

A bad lie in the bed & the 9 darter is finished.

[Skyline Drifter]

Hebridean, on Oct 17 2008, 17:43, said:

Quite incorrect. Factually, one is more skillful than the other. One side of this argument is wrong and the other side is right.

That's not strictly true, even by your own terms of judgement it is just possible that they require exactly the same amount of skill.

Never-the-less, regardless of which one requires the more skill, it is factually impossible to prove which it is so you cannot provide "definitive evidence" of anything, only opinion.

[Hebridean]

Skyline Drifter, on Oct 17 2008, 20:17, said:

That's not strictly true, even by your own terms of judgement it is just possible that they require exactly the same amount of skill.

Strictly speaking yes, that's true. I don't know what skill is measured in, but lets say completing a 147 takes 42,194 skillables. It could be that a nine dart finish requires plus, minus or equal to 42,194 skillables. It could according to my reasoning be equal but anyone who isn't a Dundee fan will accept that's extremely unlikey. Improbable even.

Skyline Drifter, on Oct 17 2008, 20:17, said:

Never-the-less, regardless of which one requires the more skill, it is factually impossible to prove which it is so you cannot provide "definitive evidence" of anything, only opinion.

Impossible? No, I don't think so. It's nice to see you recognise that skill (rather than difficulty) is the issue now that I've brought you back on track, but you've failed to list any further skills required for a nine dart finish, or devalue any of the skills I listed that are required for a 147. As such, it's quite clear which of us is stating an opinion and which one of us is providing definitive evidence.


edited twice because I'm pissed

edit - three times

This post has been edited by Hebridean: 18 October 2008 - 00:19

[Hebridean]

Steve McQueen, on Oct 17 2008, 19:30, said:

A bad lie in the bed & the 9 darter is finished

A bad lie, like a bad kick in snooker, is down to luck. The question is about skill. You, like all the people who have voted for a 9 dart finish, have misinterpreted the question.

[Fudge]

I actually cannot comprehend how people could possibly think a 9 darter is more skillfull. People are getting skill levels confused with regularity. Winning the lottery is much more unlikely than getting a 147, doesn't make it more skillful. You have to throw 9 darts accurately at the board, which is exhibiting 1 skill or perhaps a few as you have to hit varying points on the board. In snooker you have to play a multitude of different shots, requiring differnt techniques keeping the cue ball under control at all times.

[Gogs Grog]

9 darter is harder/more skilful in my opinion.

[Dee4Life1893]

Hebridean, on Oct 18 2008, 01:05, said:

Strictly speaking yes, that's true. I don't know what skill is measured in, but lets say completing a 147 takes 42,194 skillables. It could be that a nine dart finish requires plus, minus or equal to 42,194 skillables. It could according to my reasoning be equal but anyone who isn't a Dundee fan will accept that's extremely unlikey. Improbable even.



Impossible? No, I don't think so. It's nice to see you recognise that skill (rather than difficulty) is the issue now that I've brought you back on track, but you've failed to list any further skills required for a nine dart finish, or devalue any of the skills I listed that are required for a 147. As such, it's quite clear which of us is stating an opinion and which one of us is providing definitive evidence.


edited twice because I'm pissed

edit - three times

Your absolute fuddery shows no sign of relenting.

Fucking pratt

[Hebridean]

Dee4Life1893, on Oct 18 2008, 18:43, said:

Your absolute fuddery shows no sign of relenting.

Fucking pratt

[The Millenator]

Fudge, on Oct 18 2008, 01:55, said:

I actually cannot comprehend how people could possibly think a 9 darter is more skillfull. People are getting skill levels confused with regularity. Winning the lottery is much more unlikely than getting a 147, doesn't make it more skillful. You have to throw 9 darts accurately at the board, which is exhibiting 1 skill or perhaps a few as you have to hit varying points on the board. In snooker you have to play a multitude of different shots, requiring differnt techniques keeping the cue ball under control at all times.

While I probably agree that a 147 is more difficult (although I'm still not entirely convinced) you simply CANNOT say that a 9 darter requires just a single skill. Surely in that case all that is required for a 147 is the single skill of being able to hit the white ball correctly?

[north_west_L52]

147.

No contest

[WullieBroonIsGod]

I'd say a 147

(Imagine trying both blindfolded, definately a 147! )

No that I've much chance of managing either like!

[Hebridean]

The Millenator, on Oct 21 2008, 14:11, said:

you simply CANNOT say that a 9 darter requires just a single skill.

I listed two skills for the nine dart finish in my argument. Name a third.

[The Millenator]

Hebridean, on Oct 17 2008, 15:31, said:

To throw a nine dart finish you need two skills.
1. To know which trebles and doubles you need to hit with your next dart.
2. To throw a dart with sufficient accuracy to hit the appropriate target.

For a 147 you need a variety of skills including, but not limited to
1. Interpreting the lie of the balls to assess whether to take on a pot or to play for safety
2. Having sufficient accuracy to successfully pot the object ball
3. Judging the pace of the cue ball to leave position on the next object ball
4. Using side, follow through and back spin to create position on the next object ball when the natural angle won't suffice.
5. Using check side and reverse check side when the cue ball is going to hit a cushion
6. Judging the point at which the object ball must be struck so that it still goes into the pocket when side has been used.
7. Judging how far off the angle of incidence will be from the angle of reflection on the cushion according to the pace of the cue ball.
8. Judging whether the use of side will alter the course of the cue ball before contact with the object ball
9. Judging how much the nap of the cloth will affect shots, both on the table surface and the cushion
10. Playing using a variety of equipment when called on
11. Judging which order to take the reds to prevent a maximum becoming impossible
12. Judging whether or not to attempt a maximum break during the early stages
13. Judging when and how to brings tied up reds into play

I'll declare at 13-2. Case closed.

Hebridean, on Oct 21 2008, 15:43, said:

I listed two skills for the nine dart finish in my argument. Name a third.

It's a ridiculous argument. You are basically saying darts is one skill (I'm not counting the first). However, when you look at the 13 you list for snooker they are all essentially the same - hitting the white ball exactly where you want to. Darts is not as simple as throwing straight. You need to take into consideration the lie of the other darts, leaving enough space for other darts, switching your stance in order to get around other darts, switching your stance depending on your target, using the lie of other darts to your advantage, changing your throw to get around those other darts...........

It's a complicated activity is 'Arras' and to suggest there is only limited thought and skill shows a complete lack of understanding of the game. Or, rather, maybe it shows that you are a snooker fan, determined to win this argument.

As you can probably sense from the first paragraph, I've changed my mind as to what requires more skill. A nine darter requires nine perfect darts. With a 147 you can get away with more than a few loose shots and still be successful. The allowance for error is greater in a 147, so it's a nine dart finish for me.

[Hebridean]

The Millenator, on Oct 22 2008, 10:23, said:

look at the 13 you list for snooker they are all essentially the same - hitting the white ball exactly where you want to.

...but you need to know where and how to hit the cue ball, and what effect this will have on the cue ball before it hits the object ball, after it hits the object ball and after it hits a cushion if applicable. And also how the object ball will be affected by where the cue ball has been struck. That's still very distinct from the singular skill of throwing a dart into a target.

The Millenator, on Oct 22 2008, 10:23, said:

You need to take into consideration the lie of the other darts, leaving enough space for other darts, switching your stance in order to get around other darts, switching your stance depending on your target, using the lie of other darts to your advantage, changing your throw to get around those other darts...........

These all apply to a 147 to a greater extent than they do to a 9 dart finish. You need to take into consideration the lie of the other balls, leaving enough space for other balls to be pottable, switching your stance after every single shot (and in snooker, there are far more stances to be learnt than in darts), switching your stance depending on your target (I can duplicate it too), using the lie of other balls to your advantage, changing your stroke to get around those other balls. And in all cases right down to potting the final blue, there are far more balls on the table than the one or two darts that are on the dartboard.

The Millenator, on Oct 22 2008, 10:23, said:

With a 147 you can get away with more than a few loose shots and still be successful.

Only if you have the required SKILL to recover position. Position, i might add, that has to be created in the process of building the break, unlike darts where there is no impediment to the required outcome at the point when the player steps up to the oche.

[The Millenator]

Hebridean, on Oct 22 2008, 18:18, said:

...but you need to know where and how to hit the cue ball, and what effect this will have on the cue ball before it hits the object ball, after it hits the object ball and after it hits a cushion if applicable. And also how the object ball will be affected by where the cue ball has been struck. That's still very distinct from the singular skill of throwing a dart into a target.

These all apply to a 147 to a greater extent than they do to a 9 dart finish. You need to take into consideration the lie of the other balls, leaving enough space for other balls to be pottable, switching your stance after every single shot (and in snooker, there are far more stances to be learnt than in darts), switching your stance depending on your target (I can duplicate it too), using the lie of other balls to your advantage, changing your stroke to get around those other balls. And in all cases right down to potting the final blue, there are far more balls on the table than the one or two darts that are on the dartboard.

Only if you have the required SKILL to recover position. Position, i might add, that has to be created in the process of building the break, unlike darts where there is no impediment to the required outcome at the point when the player steps up to the oche.

Hey, I have never disputed the skill involved in snooker or the difficulty involved in posting a break of 147, so you're arguing against yourself there. My argument was around the fact that Darts is not a one-dimensional game, in the same way that Snooker is not as simple as just being able to hit the white ball and football is not as simple as just kicking an inflatable piece of leather, etc.

You clearly have a limited understanding of the game of darts compared to the marvel you display for the green baize. But, surely you must have thrown enough darts in your time to realise the difficulties associated with throwing nine perfect darts in succession?

And, regarding that final point, positioning is not always down to a great deal of skill. What you haven't yet acknowledged is that a 147 is not entirely reliant on skill, unlike a 9 dart finish, but requires at least one HUGE slice of luck.

[sonofjenova]

I can't believe some people are honestly trying to argue this point. It's an unanswerable question.

Is a nine-dart finish more skilful than scoring a goal from inside your own half? Is a 147 that wee bit more tricky than being able to obtain a 2:1 in Pure Mathematics at Oxford?

A bit absurdist, but there you go. There are so many different factors involved in each achievement you could never possibly hope to compare the two without looking anything other than stupid.

[StMirren1987]

While a 9 dart finish requires a massive amount of skill... i would say a 147 requires more because you need to judge the speed of the ball and get the positioning right for your next shot, i admire any darts player who can do a 9 dart finish but not as much as a snooker player who does a 147.

[Hebridean]

The Millenator, on Oct 23 2008, 08:55, said:

My argument was around the fact that Darts is not a one-dimensional game, in the same way that Snooker is not as simple as just being able to hit the white ball

Well, you say you're trying to argue that point but you've not really come up with anything. It's throwing a dart with sufficient accuracy to hit a target. In itself, a task which requires more skill than most single snooker shots. The spurious skills you tried to add tp prove your point all applied to snooker more than they did to darts.

[Padayr]

I thought that this was all about other 'SPORTS'. Not 'GAMES' for fat blokes whose only idea of an athletic moment would be how far they have to lift their pint. Granted, there's considerable skill in both games. But Sport ! I don't think so !

[StewartyMac]

Padayr, on Oct 28 2008, 19:48, said:

I thought that this was all about other 'SPORTS'. Not 'GAMES' for fat blokes whose only idea of an athletic moment would be how far they have to lift their pint. Granted, there's considerable skill in both games. But Sport ! I don't think so !

There are no professional snooker or darts players anymore who drink alcohol whilst playing professionally.

As for you main, tired, clichéd, ignorant point, both are games played in a sporting environment, therefore both are classed as 'sports'.

Football is also a game played in a sporting environment. The amount of 'athletic movement' has very little to do with it.

[centralparker]

It's impossible to compare the merits of the 9-dart finish and the 147-break as darts and snooker are completely different disciplines. Suffice to say that both feats are incredibly difficult and have only been performed a handful of times in televised tournaments.

A better comparison might be, what is more difficult? A 147 break in snooker or 75 consecutive cannons in billiards.

[Skyline Drifter]

centralparker, on Nov 4 2008, 13:33, said:

A better comparison might be, what is more difficult? A 147 break in snooker or 75 consecutive cannons in billiards.

That's clearly the 147 though. There are countless examples of people clocking up a thousand points or more in Billiards by getting the three balls into a corner and playing cannon after cannon after cannon for hours on end.