[Nizzy]

Bloobell, on Jul 13 2008, 17:44, said:

I'm involved in a project in North Carbrain just now and they're not far behind

Naughty. South Carbrain is infinitely worse than the North Carbrain, though.

[Nizzy]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 17:45, said:

I wouldn't be bothered if AA Gill was criticising a restaurant, but instead he is insulting people who have done nothing to deserve such abuse, and have been unfortunate enough to grow up in one of the most deprived areas in the UK.

The fact you're born in such an environment doesn't mean you have to succumb to it.

seamus, on Jul 13 2008, 17:46, said:

So many people on here have such an educated view of the East End without living there, they drive through it and they can feel the poverty

I'm not suggesting I 'feel the poverty' but even passing through Shettleston gives you a pretty good indication of what the area, and it's residents, are like. Do you recognise the people he describes in the piece?

[Supras]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 17:43, said:

I think he's trying to visualize the area for his readers and, as someone who passes through Shettleston on a regular basis, I think he does a pretty good job of it. C'mon, put political correctness to one side for a minute. You say you've visited Shettleston, so you must have recognised the kind of characters he was describing when you were reading the article.

There is no way I would describe them the same way he does.

Yes they are small, so are most people in Glasgow, I don't think they physically look worse than people from other areas of Glasgow.


Even if his descriptions are accurate does he really need to say it, I think "deprived area where people suffer from a variety of health problems" is better than "the people here don't look good."

The main point of the article is no doubt to be controversial, and he has achieved that.

[Nizzy]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 17:50, said:

There is no way I would describe them the same way he does.

I'm not saying you would, but you do recognise the kinds of characters he describes, don't you?

[Bloobell]

Stainrod's Fedora, on Jul 13 2008, 17:46, said:

I will answer the question because I think that you were. But by 'sub-title' I wasn't referring to the link. You started the thread and in the topic description box wrote the word 'hilarious'. I don't think I'm alone in thinking that was in bad taste.

I'm going for that lie down now.

It IS hilarious though, in a Rab C Nesbitt kinda way

[Supras]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 17:51, said:

I'm not saying you would, but you do recognise the kinds of characters he describes, don't you?

No, most of them look something like this:



And yet he has the cheek to say "the people here do not look good"

[Nizzy]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 17:53, said:

No, most of them look something like this:



And yet he has the cheek to say "the people here do not look good"

You're verging on the ridiculous. In fact, scratch that, there's no verging, you are being ridiculous.

[Bloobell]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 17:48, said:

The fact you're born in such an environment doesn't mean you have to succumb to it.

Precisely

I grew up in Edinburgh's Wester Hailes area and totally agree with that sentiment

[Supras]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 17:54, said:

You're verging on the ridiculous. In fact, scratch that, there's no verging, you are being ridiculous.

The people from Glasgow East look better than that in my opinion.

[Michael W]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 17:45, said:

I don't, and never have lived in Glasgow

I wouldn't be bothered if AA Gill was criticising a restaurant, but instead he is insulting people who have done nothing to deserve such abuse, and have been unfortunate enough to grow up in one of the most deprived areas in the UK.

It's hardly abuse. The report does make dim reading, and may certainly be exaggerated, but it's hardly abusive.

[Stainrod's Fedora]

Bloobell, on Jul 13 2008, 17:52, said:

It IS hilarious though, in a Rab C Nesbitt kinda way

As I rest my weary head, I also rest my case.

[seamus]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 17:48, said:

I'm not suggesting I 'feel the poverty' but even passing through Shettleston gives you a pretty good indication of what the area, and it's residents, are like. Do you recognise the people he describes in the piece?

You said I stay just up the road in Cumbernauld
There is a vast difference staying in Cumbernauld than Shettleston in money and community.
Cumbernauld is banjo country.
Pockets of poverty are not exclusive to the east end.

[wearealldoomed]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 17:41, said:

That's a fair point. I was born in Glasgow and live up the road in Cumbernauld, but the places Gill visits and the people he encounters are exactly the kind of places and people my eyes are drawn to while passing through the area. What we can say is that he doesn't paint an accurate picture of the whole of the east end - as you've noted, he doesn't take Mount Vernon of Tollcross into consideration - but he does describe those he has decided to focus on in perfect detail.

Fair enough, but I thill think predjudice and snobbery come across loud and clear in the article.

You'll encounter similar characters on Kilmarnock Road in Shawlands, yet if there were a Glasgow South by-election in the offing, I doubt that national newspaper correspondents would be packed off there to compose articles of this nature.

[Supras]

Michael W, on Jul 13 2008, 17:56, said:

It's hardly abuse. The report does make dim reading, and may certainly be exaggerated, but it's hardly abusive.

Let's say the article was written by an english reporter and was about the whole of Scotland as opposed to shettleson. Same content, same overexaggerated insults, and I think it would be certainly classed as abuse.

If someone said the people in my area "do not look good" and compares them to cave dwellers then I would certainly be offended and would consider it abuse.

It is written by a man from edinburgh who clearly thinks he is better than the people he is writing the article about.

[Nizzy]

seamus, on Jul 13 2008, 18:00, said:

You said I stay just up the road in Cumbernauld

Yes, and what's your point? I also said passing through Shettleston gives you a pretty good indication of what the area and it's residents are like. Do you not agree? And I don't believe anyone is saying poverty is a problem exclusive to the east end. What some of us are saying is that he paints a pretty accurate picture of the people he's focused on, which I think is a fair point.

[Nizzy]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 18:03, said:

If someone said the people in my area "do not look good" and compares them to cave dwellers then I would certainly be offended and would consider it abuse.

Even if it was the truth? Saying people 'do not look good' is hardly abusive, is it? I'd suggest you're an inverted snob. You're hung up on the fact Gill's from Edinburgh, and is upper class at that, and are finding that hard to get past that. What would be your reaction if it had been written by a native of the area who shared his sentiments?

This post has been edited by Nizzy: 13 July 2008 - 17:10

[Nizzy]

Supras, read the article again and pay particular attention to the part about the elderly gentlemen that inhabit Shettleston's pubs. If that isn't a damning indictment of the current Labour government, as opposed to a stinging attack on the people of Glasgow's east end, I don't know what is.

[Supras]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 18:07, said:

Even if it was the truth? Saying people 'do not look good' is hardly abusive, is it? I'd suggest you're an inverted snob. You're hung up on the fact Gill's from Edinburgh, and is upper class at that, and are finding that hard to get past that. What would be your reaction if it had been written by a native of the area who shared his sentiments?

I was unaware that Gill was upper class.

I don't think a native of the area would write such an article, and I certainly do not think a native would share the idea that the people from the area "do not look good"

However, had the article been written by someone from Glasgow East then I would view it the same way I view the article now.

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 18:10, said:

Supras, read the article again and pay particular attention to the part about the elderly gentlemen that inhabit Shettleston's pubs. If that isn't a damning indictment of the current Labour government, as opposed to a stinging attack on the people of Glasgow's east end, I don't know what is.

I am totally aware of that, however saying the people "do not look good" has nothing to with politics and shouldn't be in the article.

[seamus]

Nizzy, on Jul 13 2008, 18:04, said:

Yes, and what's your point? I also said passing through Shettleston gives you a pretty good indication of what the area and it's residents are like. Do you not agree? And I don't believe anyone is saying poverty is a problem exclusive to the east end. What some of us are saying is that he paints a pretty accurate picture of the people he's focused on, which I think is a fair point.

Cumbernauld is in North Lanarkshire not Glasgow its also a totally different more affluent enviroment and about 4 miles away.
Everyone that can walk and who you can see at a certain time of the day does not give a picture of the residents in Shettleston what about the High Flats, Disabled, Older People,Asylum seekers ,Refugees,Workers or others that were not fortunate enough to be seen by you?

[Michael W]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 18:03, said:

Let's say the article was written by an english reporter and was about the whole of Scotland as opposed to shettleson. Same content, same overexaggerated insults, and I think it would be certainly classed as abuse.

If someone said the people in my area "do not look good" and compares them to cave dwellers then I would certainly be offended and would consider it abuse.

It is written by a man from edinburgh who clearly thinks he is better than the people he is writing the article about.

No it wouldn't. It would be classed as exaggerated and also perhaps as stereotypical. The writer clearly doesn't think he's better than the people he's writing about, unless I missed the "look at me, I've got a good job, you giro people can fuck off" paragraph.

FWIW - I think Nizzy makes a great point, Now climb down off that high horse.

[Supras]

Michael W, on Jul 13 2008, 18:15, said:

No it wouldn't. It would be classed as exaggerated and also perhaps as stereotypical. The writer clearly doesn't think he's better than the people he's writing about, unless I missed the "look at me, I've got a good job, you giro people can f**k off" paragraph.

FWIW - I think Nizzy makes a great point, Now climb down off that high horse.

I keep highlighting this section as it backs up my point

Quote

The constituency is large and incoherent. It looks like the national museum of pebble dashing – everything that could have the bottom of a fish tank stuck to it has.

The people do not look good here. Often it is difficult to tell men from women, old men from older men. The mean parades of shops are dotted with tanning parlours. Yet the locals have the blotchy pallor of cave-dwelling consumptives; only their first two fingers are stained brown.

In the pubs there are shellsuited angry men with faces like melted funeral candles.

This is not painting a vivid description of the area, it is abuse of the people living there. I find it hard to believe that you do not see the condescending nature of this article .

[Nizzy]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 18:14, said:

I certainly do not think a native would share the idea that the people from the area "do not look good"

I am totally aware of that, however saying the people "do not look good" has nothing to with politics and shouldn't be in the article.

So the residents of Shettleston all walk about thinking they and their neighbours look fantastic? Look at the article as a whole Supras. The fact they 'don't look good' is political. Gill is saying that these people are among Labour's staunchest supporters and yet the party has turned its back on them, allowing the area, and it's people, to fall into disrepair. He does note that the people he encounters haven't helped themselves, which goes back to what I said about people having the choice not to become products of their environment, but he's laying the blame at the feet of those in power.

seamus, on Jul 13 2008, 18:15, said:

Cumbernauld is in North Lanarkshire not Glasgow its also a totally different more affluent enviroment and about 4 miles away.
Everyone that can walk and who you can see at a certain time of the day does not give a picture of the residents in Shettleston what about the High Flats, Disabled, Older People,Asylum seekers ,Refugees,Workers or others that were not fortunate enough to be seen by you?

I didn't say the people I've seen are the only inhabitants of Shettleston, but they do give a pretty good indication of those who live there, wouldn't you say. As I've already pointed out, Gill only scratches the surface of the populace, but does accurately describe those he meets.

Again, like Supras, you seem to be hung up on where others come from. The fact I live in Cumbernauld matters not a jot. I grew up in a single-parent family in one of the town's least-salubrious areas and am a direct descendent of Maryhill's shipyard workers. Hardly the affluent background or lifestyle you seem to be suggesting.

The thing is, I'm qualified to talk about and describe what I've witnessed, as is Gill. And, as I'll say for about the fortieth time in this thread, he does a pretty good job of it.

This post has been edited by Nizzy: 13 July 2008 - 17:27

[Michael W]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 18:19, said:

I keep highlighting this section as it backs up my point



This is not painting a vivid description of the area, it is abuse of the people living there. I find it hard to believe that you do not see the condescending nature of this article .

Yes, which is why it is exaggerated. The article is not however, abusive. Condescending and abusive have to different meanings.

That article is not abusive. If you really want to see what abuse looks like in text, carry on telling me this article is abusive and I will show you what abuse looks like.

[Nizzy]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 18:19, said:

This is not painting a vivid description of the area.

It does, you know.

[Bloobell]

Supras, on Jul 13 2008, 18:03, said:

It is written by a man from edinburgh who clearly thinks he is better than the people he is writing the article about.

He is